Governance | What is the potential for ECAF to be replaced?

in #eos3 years ago

Meeting announcement

Meeting Notice: EOS Alliance - Serenity Team
Meeting time: November 20 (Tuesday) 8 pm, Beijing time
Theme of the meeting: Since the mainnet launching, many people in the community are looking forward to the referendum project very much. After the new version of the recent referendum is launched, there are more and more discussions about this type of referendum, and there are many expectations for the function of the referendum. At this time, some people advocate canceling the ECAF.
What do you think is the role of ECAF? If this part is cancelled, how should the relevant functions be re-owned? Welcome to the discussion.

Participants

Moderator: [email protected]
Participants (in order of speaking):
[email protected] Observer
遁一@GEOS
Zhao [email protected]
[email protected] arbitration case experience
[email protected]
[email protected] Alliance
Huangti
Ti
[email protected]
[email protected] Taipei
John
June
Lemons

Meeting discussion content

[email protected]:
I have recently been concerned about this issue by seeing Ashe Oro’s Twitter, which proposes to cancel Article 9 of the 1.0v of the Constitution. Article 9 deals with the Settlement of Disputes, that is, “All disputes arising out of or in connection with this Constitution shall be finally settled under the Rules of Dispute Resolution of the EOS Core Arbitration Forum by one or more arbitrators appointed in accordance with the said Rules." I don't know if you see this news, what do you think?

Guangshu:
At the beginning of the first arbitration case, I realized that the current ECAF model is not a good development trend. At that time, everyone started to be a little vigilant, especially the arbitration of the money. BM quickly proposed the concept of “delay contract”, although he wrote the term “bank contract” in the article. That is to say, the scope of the arbitration is limited to the scope of the delay contract, which cancels the content of the ECAF default arbitration, and the ECAF loses the status of the core arbitration. The community needs to build a new arbitration system to balance rights is another topic. This program from BM provides a theoretical basis for the community's arbitration system.

Dun Yi:
Why cancel ECAF? Arbitration for forensics requires people, not procedures to verify. It is now impossible to cancel. The EOS private key is an operation that can be changed, and now it can't be reversed.

Guangshu:
The "cancel ECAF" we discussed tonight is actually to say that the current detailed arbitration process is not reasonable.

Dun Yi:
That is to reform the ECAF system, not to cancel.

Guangshu:
We need a new system. If ECAF does not adapt under such a system, it will be cancelled. ECAF does not exist, it is not my concern. I am more concerned about how the new process system can make the arbitration system more reasonable, such as how the arbitration mechanism deals with voting, and what criteria are used to select and evaluate arbitrators.

Dun Yi:
According to the current situation, reform is necessary.

Zhao [email protected]:
The content of the topic we discussed last time (“Governance | If the rules are not observed, what is the meaning of the Constitution?”). This time we had a special roundtable at the Norwegian meeting to discuss governance related content. At the time, the head of ECAF, Moti, was also on the scene. I asked him "why there is no open source project (not complying with the rules), ECAF has to implement arbitration". Moti explained to me that, for example, two people are in a room where smoking is not allowed. A starts to smoke. It is against the rules of smoking. B Because A smokes indoors, he beats A. Although it was A foul at the beginning, the result was that both A and B were fouled, and these was two cases.

Guangshu:
Can Moti's example be understood in this way, judging in two directions, if the dispute exists and someone's legitimate rights and interests are damaged, can the ruling begin? I hope that everyone can pay attention to BM's plan, that is, the arbitration specification is within the time-delay contract. For example, the previous contract is a delay contract within three days. When there is a problem, the arbitration time range of the dispute is three days. Inside, when I apply for arbitration, I can only freeze my currency (when the suspect has not transferred), this can only freeze the applicant's account, the scope of the dispute will be smaller. We can stretch more content based on BM's ideas.

Dun Yi:
I think this thing can be tried, Block.One can go to testnet to test it.

Zhao [email protected]:
It's not something that Block.One has to do. Now someone has done something like this on the testnet. In addition, the solution that Guangshu just mentioned, I have a problem. For example, I was involved in a fraud. I have not found it within three days. Can I not handle it after three days?

Guangshu:
I am trying to answer your question. If each user can choose whether to join or not, the privilege is limited to the delay contract. If I need a time-delay contract, then I can set the time and amount (for example, 100 EOS or more in the delay contract, 100 EOS can transfer directly without triggering the delay contract), according to their risk tolerance and consumption. Need to set the scope of your own trigger delay contract, if you have not triggered at this time you can go to ECAF to apply for arbitration.

Zhao [email protected]:
Can I file an arbitration within three days?

Guangshu:
It is necessary to make the user arbitrarily return the currency according to the needs of the user and how long it takes to delay the user's interest. This is to be stipulated by the user.

Dun Yi:
What is the advantage of your plan compared to the current situation?

Guangshu:
The advantages of this type of delay contract are reflected in three aspects:

  1. Changing the existing system cannot guarantee the effectiveness of arbitration. If you want arbitration (judicial) effectiveness, you must be bound beforehand and disciplined afterwards. In the current arbitration scheme, the thief has enough time to steal the assets. At the same time, for the judiciary, there is not so much ability and so much energy to do things without scope. Such a scheme would allow the arbitrator to have enough time to review the case.
  2. Can narrow the scope of the judiciary. For example, if A applies for arbitration, it can freeze the account of A and does not involve the account of the recipient B, C or D.
  3. With such effectiveness, there are reference indicators and dimensions for the arbitrator's trial, review and evaluation.
    The above is what I am thinking about now.

TZ:
As a token holder, I have two problems with this system:

  1. Can I notify us after the account has been frozen? Is there such a tool? If I need to cooperate with the investigation, I will definitely cooperate. But I have been looking for why the account can't be used for two months. The whole process is very difficult.
  2. I found that my case had a problem. It was very difficult to ask for help from all parties. I went to the telegram group and found it for ten days without any progress. Currently I can't find an efficient community or tool to solve the problem.

Zhao [email protected]:
I will answer the TZ question first, https://bloks.io/blacklist about the notification. There are all ECAF blacklist notifications and information about the lifting of the ban. In addition, BP and community members are doing some tools, ECAF has a similar notification channel, and the account is eacfofficial, you can pay attention. And you said that if you don’t know who to go to, it’s really a problem.
As mentioned in EOS New York, it is recommended to put the arbitrator's information on the chain. You should now see which arbitrator handles your case so that you can find them by chain. This can reduce the amount of time and effort the victim will spend searching for information as you did before.

TZ:
I think that if it can be done well, these things should be less difficult to solve.

Guangshu:
How to deal with it in the future will be better, I also tried to think about it. Just like TZ, "I have heard of arbitration, but I can never predict that I will be involved in it." A time-delay contract is a great feature, which means you can choose whether or not to join a time-delay contract. No one will be blamed for no reason.
In addition, the multi-arbitration tribunal is a program that the victim can choose. You can choose the arbitral tribunal you trust to communicate. Avoid communication caused by problems such as culture and jet lag.
The arbitration scheme I hope is based on the BM arbitration scheme, that is, "1, the delay contract is optional; 2, the arbitration is limited to the time limit of the delay contract." You can set your own range of EOS quantities and what the time range is.

TZ:
Yes, if there is such a contract, I will choose a scheme like this for a regular token holder.

Dun Yi:
If I didn't know the arbitration before, can I maintain the official website and user experience with a centralized group?

Zhao [email protected]:
According to the content of the Constitution, my understanding is that the arbitration forums can be market-oriented. Because of competition, each one will become very responsive and consider the user experience. There is another perspective, such as how to protect at the user's account level. Even some teams let users authorize Active permissions, which is very dangerous, so in community education, we should do more to reduce the risk of users.

Dun Yi:
Let me talk about my feelings. I often re-import the private key with my wallet. There are 2 private keys, which are lost more than twice each time you re-import. Although some things are safe, for small white users, the simpler the better.

Guangshu:
I would like to ask participants who understand technology. Can BM's solution be expanded? For example, smart contracts can be set up with security protection, such as the function of time-delay contracts, to prevent contracts from being attacked by hackers. BM's solution is that it is optional for the user, but at the same time, delay contracts and arbitral forums that are unfamiliar to the user may actually have fewer delay contracts. For users, adding a time-delay contract to Dapps, because users want to use Dapps, so you will also need to join the delay contract.

Zhao [email protected]:
At the Oslo meeting, a BP team introduced a very interesting little thing, a simple contract, and if the contract check did not happen, then the action would not happen. Therefore, Guangshu's plan is technically achievable, or you can make a contract yourself. As you just mentioned, because Dapp's usage requirements force users to join the time-delay contract, this may result in too high cost for the customer, and the project side will also consider it.
So for the project side, this situation is not easy to say, unless there is a particularly good function, it can be very convenient to integrate, the contract is willing to integrate and play a protective role.

Dun Yi:
At present, in addition to the need for multiple visas, the arbitration is not much different from the actual centralized arbitration. My suggestion is to move the actual arbitration. The problem to be solved is how to make everyone convinced of the arbitration system.

Zhao [email protected]:
But moving the actual arbitration will not make people more convinced.

[email protected]:
The main concern for ECAF is that the first is skeptical about the current trust of the ECAF subject; the second one is just mentioned in the first place, moving the actual arbitration system, and we are now in the district. There is a contradiction between blockchain fast processing. Because the arbitration in reality, whether it is arbitration or the court process is very long. In the case of commercial cases, if we can get the results within six months and then go to the implementation, it will not be possible without one or two years, let alone the court part. They also have first and second trials. There is also time for review. This is not applicable in the blockchain world.
My own concerns about ECAF are these two aspects. In the referendum system, we can use technical means to solve the problem and see the effect. Like TZ, I just mentioned that I am very energetic and time-consuming in this process. So how can we improve the efficiency of arbitration is also something we have to think about. If there is no streamlined system to motivate members, and there is no technical means to put a good plan on the ground, we may suffer a lot in this area.

TZ:
I have a question. If there are 3,000 EOS in our account, 500 of them will freeze all my assets. Is there any way to freeze only the part that is involved?

Zhao [email protected]:
At present, technically, we can do it, but we don't have such an order now, so BPs also directly freezes all the assets in the account. Now with a high-privileged contract, technically BPs can only operate that part of the asset.

[email protected]:
Now, this demand may not be universally recognized. If today TZ does not mention, in fact, we do not know that this is a real demand. It is also the beginning stage. If someone asks, there may be ways to improve it later.

TZ:
Yes, now is the beginning stage, and it will be better later. Anyway, as long as the motivation for starting is good, I can accept it.

Guangshu:
BM's time-delay contract will directly solve your problem, the recipient B account will not be affected, only the part of applicant A will be frozen. As the arrival party of the asset, B will not have any restrictions, but this account may not reach B. B's account is free to trade before the ruling.
I hope that the delay contract has such a function: the user can limit certain restrictions. For example, if more than 100 EOS can trigger the delay contract, and if the amount exceeds the range, the account will take 5 days to reach the other party. account number.

Dun Yi:
Then, what do I want to transfer myself?

Zhao [email protected]:
If the delay contract is over the limit, it will automatically enter the delayed transaction, regardless of whether it is a hacker.

Guangshu:
Yes, even if the hacker steals my account, it will not move my assets within the range of 3 days set up before. This is based on what kind of risk the organizer is willing to take and his own spending power. For example, he needs to consume 1000 EOS per day, but the range of delayed contracts is 900 EOS per day, then it is for him. Consumption has an impact, so he won't set such a quota.

Dun Yi:
However, such a setting has an impact on business users, and many people do business quickly and in a timely manner.

Guangshu:
This is the flexibility of each person to set their own delay contract according to their own situation, which will not have any impact on the actual individual.

TZ:
For my little white, this setting is quite good.

Guangshu:
I have asked some technicians before. They said that technically, there is no problem in implementation, but it requires the cooperation of the whole system.

[email protected]:
Yes, this involves the structure and mechanics of the entire EOS, so this can be discussed as a new topic. This time, discussion has covered many aspects. What is the solution to the ECAF mechanism function? It still needs the consensus of the community to accept it. Now it can cause the community to pay attention to whether the role of ECAF is done well, whether its powers and responsibilities are matched, and whether the original structure is reasonable. For me, this is a good direction to some extent, which will make the structure of the community more competitive and efficient, rather than being monopolized or arranged as irreplaceable.
No matter what kind of structure, the organization itself has no sense of crisis, and there is no external pressure, spur and competition. The decline and redundancy are the necessary trend, that is, the length of time.

I hope everyone will continue to pay attention to this issue. Thanks to the participants tonight!


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