How could @janton win the engagement league with a divine score? Some analysis about @abh12345 engagement league
Last Sunday @janton won the league for the 6th time in a row.
6 consecutive wins!
But I don't think that is the most remarkable thing. Look at his points 59,027. This could be the all time record (is it?). And the most remarkable thing is the big gap with the rest of the field. @glenalbrethsen is 18,490 points away from the first spot. And I'm afraid that @themanwithnoname @lynncoyle1 and @gillianpearce are really light years away!
Taking a closer look at the data I see something that looks a bit strange at first sight. The total number of characters from number 2 Glen is pretty close to that from our undefeatable winner. Howled there is a 18,490 gap in points then?
That's because of the very large number of replies to replies. The so called depth 2+ comments. So if you want to get a high ranking in Ashers engagement league you don't necessarily need to type the most characters.
Have a look at the snap shot below. Both @mhm-philippines and @steevc have written much less characters than @thedarkhorse @buckaroo @enjar and @mirrors. But in this case they didn't get their high ranking from lots of depth 2+ comments.
If you compare @steevc with @thedarkhorse, I would say @steevc most likely needed much less characters because he has much more (unique) upvotes, a few more posts and minds 1 penalty for self upvoting.
If you compare @mhm-philippines to @buckaroo, @mhm-philippines most likely wins because all 30 witnesses are chosen. Also the very high number of posts could have helped, but is more difficult to determine. And even if a high number of posts helps, so you have time to write 27 posts in 1 week?
For coming Sunday @abh12345 announced that he will make some changes to the setup of the engagement league.
Ahem [clears throat].
Since Asher has already been here and didn't weigh in so much on your analysis as he asked what would be a good gauge of engagement, I will offer some thoughts as strictly a member of the leagues and a student of the league results equation.
But first, those who suggested that a greater interaction with folks would be a good measure (@fullcoverbetting, @crypto-econom1st) of engagement— when I started, that stat was already in place. It was traded out for the second tier commenting a few weeks later as Asher went looking for a better metric.
I would also echo some of the comments regarding this so-called circle commenting. It's true. It does happen. But as @headchange notes, you tend to converse more with those who converse with you. Not all will necessarily be in the leagues, and I've been having one and done conversations with plenty of folks who are in the league.
If the conversation is continuing only for conversation sake, and maybe how that will affect the second tier replies, well then, we're missing the point of having the conversation in the first place. However, if it continues because there's something valuable to contribute, or to explore or to understand, then I think that is the point.
I like the idea of the wider net of replies. I also like the idea of the second tier replies. I think both are indicators of some kind of engagement. The problem is always going to be, too many people don't want to engage, and that's certainly not our fault, or a lack of trying. It's just hard to quantify and adjust for, and really, it shouldn't be that big of concern. We just need to keep pushing out until we have as wide a circle as we can possibly do something with.
re: the analysis.
I am in agreement that lower tier comments play a significant role in the point equation. So does CL. So does total number of comments. Beyond that, I think the rest of the data is more than window dressing—in other words, it matters—but it's not driving the engagement points as much.
This week, @janton won, and won substantially, because he took all three of those categories, C, CE and CL. It was the winning trifecta, the perfect storm. He still would have won with lower amounts in any of those categories, and to a certain extent, all three. At some point, though, the combination of those three categories gives way to the CL leader. I've seen it happen. :)
In the case of those lower down the list, I suppose it's possible that things like witness voting and posts and number of self-upvotes could have some bearing, but I don't think so. I think it's still the principal metrics of engagement—C, CE and CL. It's just the lower you go, the more other things can count, because you're no longer dealing with greater multiples of hundreds or hundreds of thousands.
I am also in agreement that @janton is unbeatable, as long as there is no one who can keep up with the sheer number of C, CE and and accumulative CL he generates. As noted in your post, being close in CL isn't nearly enough if there's roughly a 900 amount difference in comments, and 700-something in replies.
Not unless the CL far exceeds his CL. In this case, I would guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 50,000 more CL. That brings up the number of comments, too, by the way, just because of the sheer amount of CL that needs to be generated.
While reading this reaction I realized you have your own typical style of commenting. And I believe it's a fairly good one!
Although it's a lengthy comment it stays interesting from begin to end. And it touches all the subjects. Or at least the ones you wanted to touch. Also did you first tag all the replies and included something from another reply in yours.
If I look at my style, I probably would have written 5 shorter comments. Most of them off course as reply to others.
Perhaps Asher can also include style points? 😬
Back to the data, I do think that one your outside the real engagement top, witness voting and other small things help. Just like you said yourself, because differences are smaller. Only it doesn't help if you become 60 instead of 80. In my case it did help me last week to win the zero upvoting prize for the first time. But in terms of hours spend it does not weight up at all. So I was happy to have lots of fun and sometimes a little learning.
What do you think about some penalty for the top engagers? Where one gets a penalty for ending each week on a top position?
It's good that the comment was interesting from beginning to end because it did go longer than even I was thinking it would. I was hoping to draw the discussion to it, since it was incorporating the comments of the others as well as your post. If discussions get scattered among many comment threads it becomes harder to focus and follow. I guess we'll see what happens. :)
I'd definitely need to step up if Asher includes style points.
re: penalties
You'll need to flesh that one out for me a little. What would be the reason for penalizing top engagers? Do you mean, basically keeping them from winning or even participating for a week or two like they do in the Indonesian league, I think it is?
Off the cuff, I'm generally not in favor of penalizing anyone for out producing others, but I will await your explanation before I react to what you're asking.
I actually can't really come up with a real penalty system. The only thing I can think of so far is that when someone wins the league 2 consecutive times, he/she receives a penalty for the third week. For example -5% for each consecutive win. So in week 3 their total points will be multiplied with 90%. If they also win the third and fourth week, then in week 5 their score gets multiplied with 80%.
Perhaps this is not really a brilliant plan. Cause Janton just works very hard and it should and can be rewarded.
It's just that I thought it would be nice if each week gets a different winner. But in the end that's neither what happens in most sports.
Also I got a bit triggered for this idea by a former multiple times winner 😀
A former multiple times winner who will remain nameless, right? :)
Well, okay. I can see the desire to have others winning the league, or at least placing higher, because that was part of the reason why I declined prizes for several weeks—I have more time right now than most do, and while efficiency and having a ready go to network for comments is extremely important (probably more than ever), time to comment is always going to be a factor.
Then along came Janton.He has the time, he has the networking skills, he has the ability to go everywhere. And there very well may be some others that are already in the leagues that are just barely getting the idea of what they're going to need to do. So, I'm back in the prize money because the reason for me being out is gone.
That said, though, it doesn't necessarily help those who are farther down, and I get that. If a penalty were in imposed, and I was back at No. 1 enough to warrant it, I would end up accepting it just like everything else that is done and try that much harder to stay in the money.
Penalizing top performers isn't my first choice still. Not sure what else would be, either. Time is the number one factor here and most people in the league don't have time in abundance because of other obligations. I only have it myself because my wife is working full-time. Otherwise, my time would also be cut back, and probably will be at some point.
howdy there @crypto-econom1st! ya'll have put out alot of interesting material here and food for thought so I thank you for that! I'm fine with any penalties if Asher wants to put something like that in place, it's his show and he does a brilliant job of running it so it's his call.
I doubt if I would work harder if a penalty system was in place, I think that's what Glen was saying, I'd just keep cruising along enjoying myself and having fun! lol. God bless you sir for your intellectual contributions!
Hi there, nice to see you stop by!
I have already second thoughts about the penalties. I only forgot why I changed my mind. But I think it was because of an argument from Glen. It would also be very difficult to come up with a fair penalty system. So I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.
So the question remains if someone will be able to break your impressive row of consecutive wins? In the end that will of course happen. Cause there are many great commenters. And you probably will have to go on holiday once a year.
So far I did not have time to check out your profile and read some of your posts. Did you write an introduce yourself post when you started?
oh thank you for getting back to me crypto-econom1st, I really like you numbers guys because I have no idea how to figure on any of this stuff so thank you for sharing your gifts and intellect with us!
I did do an intro post but I wouldn't recommend that! ha, I have no skills, trades, education or specialties to share like so many Steemians do so my posts are all over the place but usually focus on funny redneck themes or teaching about the American Old West or Texas Cowboys and Indians.
as far as the contest, anyone can beat me. I have no experience in blogging or social media, I'm a very slow typer and mispelled words slows me down trying to find the correct spellings, I'm not any kind of writer, blogger or author like so many gifted Steemians are, Glen being one of the most amazing.
And in addition to that my online connection is slow, being in the country and it likes to go offline quite frequently, for hours sometimes. so yes I'm very beatable.
All I do is ask alot of questions and most people are kind enough to take a little time and answer them, that's about all as far as secrets. lol. I have no strategy and that's about as simple as it gets, I've heard people ask how I do it and thats how.
thank you sir for the value that you are adding to this platform!
I actually think it's a real good thing to ask questions. There are so many things I don't understand. And also by asking a question it could become much clearer for an author that he didn't take certain aspects into account.
A few months ago I wrote a post in which I calculated how much time was needed to win from Glen or Lyncoyle. I think I came to the conclusion that one would need at least 20 hours a week. But most likely much more. And in the comments I of course learned or was much more. Having that knowledge makes me really wonder how much time you spend on Steemit? My feeling says it's over 60 hours per week. Although that sounds like really, really a lot. So you have any idea yourself?
And how do you feel about the financial rewards for your comments?
Until today I always believe that all the top engagers from Ashers league are undervalued. So that's why I basically wonder how you think about these subjects?
I agree with this, but it is nigh-on impossible to automatically gauge which conversations are happening 'just for the sake of it'.
I'm also not too keen on penalizing engagement, as per the comments in this thread.
Well, I'm glad to hear you're not, though I understand the sentiment. Time is the main factor, and I don't know how you adequately account for that, or even if you should. I mean, it's not like we necessarily choose our circumstances—some may be of our choosing and some may not—but trying to factor that in seems like another trap in and of itself.
Oh, and I agree about not being able to gauge which is which—you'd spend way too much time just reading through the back and forth because how could that be automated? I know there's supposed to be some bots running around figuring out what posts are "of high quality" based on their word usage, but so far, I can't say they're doing such a swell job of it.
I'm sure the amount of replies we have going is all in the back of our minds, but so is making the comments and amount of characters, too, along with all the rest, so honing in on one aspect at the expense of the others is not the best of tactics, if someone is trying to gain an advantage through strategy.
I just try to outdo what I did last week in every category I can. Is that a tactic? :)
Hi there @janton , do we send our results ourself or they compute it automatically ?
hey, @hananali! Looks like you were meaning to talk to @janton and not me, but it looks like you replied to one of my comments. I can try to help with the answer though. I'll need to know what results you're referring to, though. :)
Okay this much be some misunderstanding , Apologies for that, Nd about this I thought only talking about crypo and other valuable information is the purpose here, is this what u meant here? @glenalbrethsen
Well, you were mentioning results of some kind, asking @janton if you needed to send them or if they were computed automatically. I was wondering what results exactly.
This post is talking about the Engagement Leagues that abh12345 runs, and he actually pulls the numbers off of the blockchain each week. So there's not any need to send in any results, because he gets them. For those who are members anyway.
So, I'm still not sure if any of that is what you're asking about.
As far as what we talk about on Steemit, the sky's the limit. There are lots of topics, not just cryptos, though there is a lot of that, too. Some of the information will be valuable. Some of it not.
I was concerned about it because I am kind of new and still not that familiar with crypto,
Secondly I wanted to ask @janton about the same competition, do they calculate data themselves or weneed to do it manually which You answered already, I'll love joining in and give @janton some tough time there lol
Thank you for the help 👌
howdy there @hananali! yes you just do what you normally do, they do all the calculating, we welcome you and wish you luck!
That's is very easy and I think in coming days I am going to use steemit alot more than I do now so I should join in, how can I?
howdy this fine Saturday my friend! thanks for taking the questiona dn doing a masterful job as always, of answering!
Happy to help. He was mentioning you but replying to me so not knowing when you might be coming round to answer it, I figured I'd at least try to find out what he wanted. Looks like I did, so another successful engagement on the blockchain. :)
hahaha! hey sir Glen, you're ALWAYS successful in your comments, I read 'em and weep! lol, for me. it's true, I marvel.
hey I got something for your brain again, that guy from Australia wrote back about the Civil War, sounds like what we were thinking in terms of financing, the Union must have gotten loans from England?
probably need to find that out for certain but anyway here is what he said in his reply when I asked him what his knowledge of it was because I didn't know.
"Think of it in these terms.
The confederate forces, were "America" fighting to retain it's sovereignty, and the union forces, were the European Banksters reclaiming America as their own. History records it as a civil war to hide the hostile takeover, so as to prevent a future war of independence. Thus why all the presidents since, have bloodlines that go back to the European banking nobilities. Americans wont fight for their freedom, if they think they're free.
Just a fringe thought. American history is not my forte, that's why I'd appreciate your input on the thought, as a southerner yourself."
All great information. What happened to the 0 upvote incentive? I don’t ever self vote, but I did see my stat in Steemworld that had me selfvoting at .76% which I cannot find where or how.
If you are following a curation trail, and it also upvotes you; that is how it happens for me anyway ;)
Thank you for this insight and wisdom. Makes sense!
You're welcome!
Thank you for this insight and wisdom. Makes sense!
😁
Firstly, the changes won't be huge, and I'm not sure that they won't just put an even larger gap between @janton and the rest of the field. The most text, and most replies to replies (level > 2) will always be tough to beat.
What else do you think could be used/calculated to gauge engagement?
Here is maybe something that could be useful. Maybe you should also include the different number of people one interacts with!
I could for instance write dozen of comment back and forward with @crypto-econom1st. This comment/reply thingy could go very deep then. You can see it as a discord conversation.
But does this mean that I am engaged? Yes, at least with one person.
I know that it is hard to point it to one person, so maybe it is better to do it per post. So the unique number of posts one interacts on!
Just an idea! No idea how hard it is or if it is even feasible!
Cheers,
Peter
Hey
Yes that is an option, I think I looked at unique person conversations before but had a bit of trouble working it out.
I have no issue with a 'discord conversation' happening with one person, and this for me is true engagement on the Steem Blockchain. The opposite is writing 1000 replies, and not receiving a reply which you can reply to further. Once I added the comments > 2 score, a few accounts dropped right down the list :)
howdy there this fine Saturday @fullcoverbetting! I don't think I've had the pleasure sir so it's good to meet you. In regards to your thoughts of including the number of different people as another judging point in the contest, that is a good idea. I'll tell you that I run out of people to talk to because most don't have the time so I am always searching out new ones to converse with. Perhaps I will eventually have a large group who will engage indepth, then I might be able to accomplish something here! lol. God bless you!
Yeah I can confirm that there is some kind of circle jerking for comment replies. So just like we need to spread out our upvotes we also might need to do this with our replies. If I speak for myself I probably interact a lot with 15-20 Steemonians.
Further I would probably look at what's possible? As I would prefer to query the data as quickly as possible. But at least within certain minutes.
I was thinking about some kind of penalty for someone that wins the league 2 consecutive times. But on the other hand that could be a bit unfair.
Maybe better to encourage newbies?
Giving a bonus for very low SP? Then newcomers have a slightly bigger chance to win a prize. Hoping that encourages them to remain active!
Some kind of hall of fame would also be awesome!
Maybe the circle jerk effect is because of lack of replies. Lots of people are done with a conversation after one reply and maybe a reply to a reply. In my case it takes dozens of surface level interactions to equal out to a very few deeper conversations.
I am very active in #payitforward so have a lot of first time interaction with the new features. Very few of those lead to real conversation. Most are content to respond once and move on to writing more posts. I have observed that the ones who do engage in longer conversations are also those who stay here and do better with Steemit in general. Honestly those are the people I have started to chose for my own features.
I think a penalty would discourage a lot of the higher level participation. Seeing the limits pushed gives those who are a bit lower on the list a view of what is possible.
Seeing the time investment required to make top ten is a very realistc view of what it takes to succeed here in general.
That hall of fame would be great! Some of my role models have spent time at the top of that list. I would love to be able to look back at that info all in one place. Just seeing how the required numbers keep going up would be great insight.
That also sounds like the kind of data @abh12345 loves to compile. Maybe he will consider it in future.
Maybe :)
Writing a blog about my blog seems a little self-indulgent but I'll have a think about it.
I just wait for you to tell me what the numbers all mean haha, but what I know for sure, no one's even coming close to what janton does!
I do think that that is a fact!
I looked at some of his comments and they are genuine for sure, it only looks more like discord conversations! No problem with that!
We now know that how deeper the comment-reply thingy the more rewarding it is!
But when if it's like an ordinary conversation, to my opinion those can our should even take place on Steemit. As it does become more social. And there won't be any secrets. And in our case it just helps a bit for the league as well as for our visibility. And in the end of you write like 10 or 20 comments there will always be one with a little upvote.
And let’s add another level to this conversation 🤔
There is nothing wrong with his comments. If we all would do that there would be for sure more interaction going on on the Steem blockchain!
I knew that Glenal is the king of the lengthy ones but Janton just does in a different and apparently more rewarding way!
And yes with so many comments an upvote could happen of course. Hope that he did score on from the @gentlebot!
Haven’t see that one in a while 😔
I received an upvote from @gentlebot this week. I do wonder if this bot is really totally at random? And if there is some kind of blacklist? Or that even the Steemonians that write comments like "great post", receive upvotes?
I also wonder if the upvote value from gentlebot went down?
Every upvote went down and also the one of the @gentlebot.
Received one last week and it was around $0.42.
Strange because I wrote about it in a comment! Don’t think that it has a black or whitelist and yes I did see it upvoting great post comment!
Then we should build a bot that writes 1,000 comments a day. Preferably the bot would have at least 10 different comments. With a bit of luck out will earn more as I do 😂😆😩
I have two new bots who do come by sometime. Hr1 and team. No idea how they select posts, but I do appreciate it :)
Oh he's genuine alright, but I get having to have a look yourself because the numbers alone seem impossible haha
I think it is really insane the number of hours or should I say days that @janton spends on Steemit.
I still have to check out this Steemonian, but I can already predict that from a financial perspective this Steemonian is also undervalued.
He's another undervalued one for sure :)
I admit that I have been waiting for this post since @crypto-econom1st mentioned writing it. I have taken a great interest in how the scoring works because of a recent side contest. I was determined to win so studied the scoring very carefully.
I am a bit new to Steemit so the league has been a huge boost to my account in more ways than one.
I am happy to say I was friends with @janton before I got serious about engagement. Even then our conversations went far beyond 3-4 comment depth. Not because of attempts to score in the league or account build in any way. (we both have tiny votes) It started because he is funny and I needed a good laugh, but we became genuine friends over time. I believe this to be a legitimate use of the platform with or without engagement points.
I also think there can be as many reasons to be on the platform as there are users. What is gained from the leagues may very well hold more value than the growth of our individual accounts. I could go way off topic with that and should probably just make a post.
Getting back to the point. I believe the current scoring is a very good reflection of true engagement. If anything more weight should probably be given to the deeper level replies. Seems like that would be an accurate measure of one's degree of participation in the community.
@janton is everywhere, I'm beginning to think he has superpowers ;)
I agree @hhayweaver ... @janton does have superpowers and is everywhere. I have only recently started interacting with him but I can tell you that most of the time our interactions have been multiple replies deep. He is an awesome Steemian for sure. Much Love to all and Congrats @janton keep up the great work and thank you for helping me come out of my comment shell <333 #steemitbloggers
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So in the coming weeks you are going to compete for the top positions?
I was actually thinking about a strategy to eliminate everyone and win the league myself. So beware of that!
😜
😋
LOL! ahhh...no...my commenting skills still leave alot to be desired haha but I am getting better thanks to @janton. Perhaps I will join the round after this, just for fun and getting more involved... <333
This comment was made from https://ulogs.org
yay @thereikiforest! I don't think you need much help but I'm humbled if you think I helped you, you're very gracious!
This may be his job
I do think more time is spend in Steemit them most people do for their regular jobs. But for an income you don't need to be a superman commenter on Steemit.
Agreed and good point. Everyone has their own style, and favoring our strengths is very important.
I think that I will try and beat Janton, but it will be one week, very specific and planned out. My strength is planning. ;p
howdy there @ecoinstant! well sir, you have alot of people to beat before you get to me but that's what the League is all about so I'm thrilled to welcome all comers and I say good luck to you sir!
bytheway I don't plan anything so you already have an edge!
Cheers Jonboy! Thanks for the good spirit, I shoot high its true, I made it on the list, I think you'll see me higher this week even.
I think engagement is whats makes our platform, so its a worthy goal. And I thank you for setting the bar high, without that it wouldn't be as fun to try and win! But your consistency and genuine-ness is worthy of merit, its a pleasure just to participate with people like you.
thank you @ecoinstant..I like your attitude! you are in Columbia? how interesting and what a wealth of posting material that must provide! what is a "Smiter"?
and what do you do for a living?
I'm a bit of a freelance everything, a handy helper and sustainable specialist!
We are currently travelling, in Wisconsin now visiting some of my family, but we do have an experimental farm down in Colombia, South America; we've spent the better part of the last 5 years there, picking and planting and producing what we can.
Google tells me that 'To smite' is 'to strike with a firm blow' but in my head it's always related to 'smiting evil'. As Jesus showed us what is the proper purpose for anger, to stand strong in the face of evil and strike a firm blow (or flip a table)
Perhaps the account is managed by 3 persons? Each one is online 8 hours to cover 24/7 appearance 😋
That would be a lot of work just to earn the small bonus. I think Janton is just very fond of Steemit!
I believe you are right, and I am very fond of @janton and steemit as well.
haha! thank you @hhayweaver but almost everyday I see posts with authors I've never seen before filled with 30 comments from people I've never seen before so I think we only see a small percentage of the what?300,000 active users? It's pretty amazing.
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