My Thoughts About Curie and Its Criticisms

in #curie7 years ago (edited)

Disclaimer: I'm an operator in Curie. This is my own response to the various criticisms seen in other posts.

A minimum viable product

Posts are Steemit's major unit of communication. It is in anyone's interest to improve distributed judging and resource allocation all around the platform so that the network resources are going to good, honest actors. Not plagiarists, or those with the intent to defraud the community. Personally, I think that's the minimum filter required for every post on Steemit.

The way to do it is NOT by using a bot script to distribute votes blindly and indiscriminately. If anything, this method will actually scale-up error of resource distribution. It doesn't take a genius to figure out a way to abuse such a distribution model by registering loads of small accounts pumping out random shitposts. It will be a disaster if everybody supported such a distribution bot. It's conceivably the worst way to invest.

So to improve such a situation where there's just a sea of posts, the market is free to develop whatever it wants. This improvement filter can either be in the form of bots, people, and will most likely end up as a combination of both worlds. Curie is one of many initiatives, or methods to improve the network.

Here's how Curie works

Organizational structure

We are divided into two major groups. First is the internal curation group consisting post finders, post vouchers, and ultimately, the proxy voters. Second is the external curation group. It's open to the rest of the community to suggest posts as long as these post meet the guidelines that we have developed organically over the course of our collective experience operating Curie.

All Curie members are quite simply operators. We do not have any defined roles, and we can take-up and pass on roles anytime as long as time and skills permit. Other than the more technical stuff like maintaining a witness and developing the software to assist Curie works, anybody in Curie can be part of any operational process stated below.

At the time of writing, we have nine (9) core Curie operators, and more than five-hundred (500) participants in #curie on https://steemit.chat.

Minimum operational process

Here's what happens to each and every post before it gets the @curie vote:-

  • Plagiarism check.
  • Account background and consistency check.
  • Recommended posts must be supported by other Curie members as well. Anybody can also speak their mind about the suggested post or account as well to sway the final proxy voter's decision.
  • Determine voting weight according voting power availability and quality of post.

*Please note that quality of post has more to do with the consistency of account. We do not entirely disregard posts with stuff that we may not personally agree with like bad grammar, etc. That said, it's important to have an efficient group of people speaking their minds to debate about voting issues. We are certainly still learning what it means to reward a diverse crowd.*

Funding the operations

There are several common misconceptions about the flow of funds generated by @curie's curation rewards and its daily posts. First off, curation rewards of the top influencers supporting Curie are mostly returned to @curie on top of the rewards generated by the daily posting. As per the recent Daily Curie, this is true for every word:-

100% of said funds are paid out to the hundreds of curators submitting posts, the staff processing them, and various other expenses such as software development, server expenses, proxy account acquisition, etc. All transactions are completely transparent and visible on @curie's wallet.

Nobody here is cashing out to buy a Lamborghini. Funds are mostly distributed widely to quality curators for their time and effort. There's real work done on all fronts.

Improving the operation

Over the past few months since Curie started, we have been intensely modifying the payout amounts to suit the reward pool size. In fact, we have lowered it down so much that some earlier Curie members could not continue doing quality curation full-time. They weren't easy decisions but it had to be done. Most of the active Curie operators these days are actually located in countries with lower cost-of-living.

In order to scale-up and improve the cost of operations at the same time, we are looking for ways to automate both book-keeping and post / account value-detection. This is by no means to replace manual curation entirely, but just to lessen the time, effort, and cost spent for each post.

Personally, I think the large dataset available through Curie's many thousands of votes throughout the months could prove to be beneficial to producing some type of autofilter using machine learning to process posts (and also account activities) at one point.

Also, in my own wish to develop a gig platform on top of Steemit, I may begin to propose including account meta-tagging as part of Curie operations in the future to add more value into our curation works.

Curie operations shouldn't be funded by the daily reward pool?

As mentioned earlier, most top voters supporting Curie do not earn from their curation rewards. In fact, most curation rewards are given back to @curie to be distributed to those that have performed work - spending their time and effort curating. (Edit, I removed the part that says that 100% of curation rewards from accounts like @val-a are returned to fund Curie's operation. It is more complicated than that as the funding comes in form of SP and some other considerations like liquidation period, taxes, etc)

Personally, I think a Minimum Viable Product (or Service) like Curie and Steemcleaners could use wider community realisation and support. If there's a better way to do this while instilling confidence for network investors, please spark a discussion on it. So far, @curie has been limiting itself to basic list posting, maintaining a neutral position without providing any other information other than its intended function.

I really don't see how else is @curie going to get funded if not by part of the daily reward pool. In a way, it simply means that the community is deciding that the small daily portion is for keeping up with Steemit's MVP / MVS.

The annoyance of repetitive trending posts

This is certainly a quirk of Steemit that I'm also susceptible to it. The Daily Curie is method to fund the operation - there's nothing to hide here. One way to spice it up would be to make it a unique post by featuring some up and coming writer, and then append the usual Daily Curie list and stats at the end of the post.

However that's just a play on perception, and I sure hope that annoyance isn't the only argument for assessing value. It's really not an ideal situation - everybody in Curie knows that. But for each day a Daily Curie is up there on trending, displacing what could have been something else, there is a list of other 60-120 posts that have gone through various processes executed mainly by 9 Curie operators and a good number of other quality curators on #curie.

While The Daily Curie looks repetitive and boring as hell, the list contained in it is surely not.

Future plans

The best organization is to have each person on Steemit empowered with the tools to be effective curators, especially for those with high stakes looking out for the network's best interests. In a way of speaking, the most efficient unit of Curie is simply one person without all the fat of an organization. I believe the abundance of data and community participation that comes along with the Curie initiative will benefit the system over the long-run. That's certainly needed to come up with solutions to remove the vetting organization. It is something that we're learning over time.

If Curie has a goal, it is really to figure out ways to dissolve and make itself irrelevant at one point. But for now, whales with voting power but not enough time may consider us @curie as a trusted curation guild. I hope the community continues its lively debates around curation guild and ways to improve the situation.


Background image by Pixar / WALL-E


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Very well put Kevin. I think Curie, as well as other curation guilds, is/are essential to distribute rewards to different authors. Steemit already has a major steem distribution problem as well as user retention problem (though they are probably the same problem)... can you imagine what it would look like if no curation guilds existed?

I can't say for sure, but I am positive we would have a lot less users today than we currently do.

In my opinion these guilds are not meant to last forever. They are a stopgap that helps distribute steem until either the site is large enough (meaning it has enough whales to do the curating) or there is some form of centralized curation done by the site itself... until one of those happens we need curation guilds or we lose a lot more of our current user base.

I'm pretty sure I said something to the effect "Curie will be done when there's no need for Curie anymore". I was wrong. I have discovered something - Steemit's true innovation is rewarding curation. Other social networks do reward authors - if not in cash, they do so in engagement and exposure. In working with Curie, I have seen a vibrant community form. I'm pretty sure #curie is the most engaged project on Steemit - over a hundred curators participate every week, and over 500 long term. There are people who love finding posts more than writing them, and these people had no voice before Steemit.

Curation guilds are what will make Steemit special. It'll make Steemit a better network than Reddit (or whatever else) - which have a major problem with great content being ignored due to the sheer volume. Curation guilds are Steemit's one true innovation, and it would be a shame to lose them.

Interesting thoughts and good points! I hadn't looked at it like that and I think that would be another check mark for the why we need Curie and curation guilds side...

Other social networks do reward authors - if not in cash, they do so in engagement and exposure. In working with Curie, I have seen a vibrant community form. I'm pretty sure #curie is the most engaged project on Steemit - over a hundred curators participate every week, and over 500 long term. There are people who love finding posts more than writing them, and these people had no voice before Steemit.

Curation guilds are what will make Steemit special. It'll make Steemit a better network than Reddit (or whatever else) - which have a major problem with great content being ignored due to the sheer volume. Curation guilds are Steemit's one true innovation, and it would be a shame to lose them.

I never thought about it that way, although I might have expressed it differently here as its ultimate conclusion:-

The best organization is to have each person on Steemit empowered with the tools to be effective curators, especially for those with high stakes looking out for the network's best interests. In a way of speaking, the most efficient unit of Curie is simply one person without all the fat of an organization. I believe the abundance of data and community participation that comes along with the Curie initiative will benefit the system over the long-run. That's certainly needed to come up with solutions to remove the vetting organization. It is something that we're learning over time.

I guess criticism comes from those who have never benefited from curie. It is a bit sad to see curie contributors being on the defensive side. As one of those people that stayed around BECAUSE of curie, I 'd say the correct response to critics would be more along the following lines;

Still part of the community - shouldn't just brush it off aside entirely.. :)

Now that I think about it, the ultimate troll would be to start voting for curie's critics, put them up in the daily lists etc. Let's see how long their criticism will last ;)

Hi, I have a suggestion to soften the annoying of repetitive posts: publish not the same, but different cover images with the first 3 or 5 selected posts' pictures/illustrations. If possible, you can use animated gif to put these images/headlines in a sequence (but the thumbnail would continue a static gif, the first frame I think).

Somekind like this:

I believe this change will also attract more viewers to the posts. Another suggestions would be skip the Introduction paragraphs that is already known for the frequent visitor and also repeated in every posts. It could be replaced by a tagline with link to a fixed Introduction page or moved to the bottom of the daily posts.

Congratulations, thanks and good luck for us all again!

I like this idea - definitely worth considering. Thanks for taking the time to suggest this!

You're welcome, thank you too for considering it. Feel free to ask if you'll need any help. Congratulations, thanks and good luck again!

Hi, I made a animated gift draft with today's Daily Curie top 5 posts images and titles and posted here https://steemit.com/curation/@wagnertamanaha/my-suggestion-to-soften-the-annoying-of-curie-s-repetitive-posts I hope this draft could push and not dismay the change :-) Thanks and good luck for us all again!

You guys are doing a great job, this site can be a little unfriendly atm for new users and you guys help fix that.

I don't know how Curie helped with site unfriendliness - mind elaborating?

I think he means that is is difficult for new users to see any kind of rewards after their intro post. Curie doesn't pick them up immediately but often gets them after only a couple weeks... Without Curie supporting them they likely would have left. I think that is what is meant by that :)

Yep what @jrcornel said. Unfortunately atm this site has a ways to go to help new people be rewarded for their work.

Nicely lined out regarding the real struggle with Whale Support and the rewards pool. More importantly I liked this line. "I hope the community continues its lively debates around curation guild and ways to improve the situation."

My largest frustration with the site is not what I earn, it is watching the same accounts day after day receive the voting pool.

With @curie, it has felt worth it.

I think with the rollout of the curation guild system, such a daily post may be transferred to a tab of its own, which may solve such a problem!

Curie is definitely a great and necessary project! It really redistribute the rewards towards the community and I don't understand how complaints could arise.

If the fact that the Curie posts reach the trending page is the only annoying point, then what about asking the developers to implement a box that can be ticked for preventing a post to be visible in the trending page (even if it meets the criteria to be in there)? This option may in principle leave the annoyance stuff away.

Better way is to have a separate tab, but if Steem price and traffic goes up while Curie maintains its curation size, the post wouldn't appear in top 10 at all.. lets see how it goes..

Yep the future will tell :)

People tend to forget that things can never be perfect. They can only be as good as the system and other conditions let them be. I think most of the problems you mentioned is not curie's fault, but Steemit platform's. Being under beta, it is still far from being user-friendly and killing projects like curie will only bring something new in that open spot... and all of it will start from the beginning. If there were simple options like declining to be shown on trending, it would make more sense to me.
As for "draining the reward pool"... I cannot understand this argument. Would people rather see whales with no time just not voting at all and awarding no one? I, myself, would like to see whales reading every single post and curating on their own, but life just does not work like that.
IMO, curie is a great project. It can be improved of course, but shutting it down would only bring more losses than gains. It was a good boost for me during my first weeks on steemit as well!
That's my 2 cents I guess. Whenever you have something big, you have to be prepared to adapt accordingly to the situation. Good luck with that!

Curie is undoubtedly an essential project, especially at this early stage in the platforms development. It has by and large been responsible for the dramatic shift in reward allocation (you can see how the number of dolphins 3000 SP) has been growing steadily over the past 6 months. That growth is almost entirely attributable to the hard work of the people involved in Curie. The community don't owe them anything however if they realized just how much time, and effort people put in to allow for the rewards to be more evenly distributed and just how many people are involved. They would likely be overwhelmingly gracious IMO.

It's hard to measure whether if it has added to the network or made it worse (we don't exactly stick to curating really good quality posts, going more for stuff that can be understood and looks like it's taken time to get produced. Sometimes we even vote on not-very-stellar posts just because the account has been consistent with their persistence). But still, I think it's worth it. Sure the "max" rewards for posts have declined in line with Curie's allocation, so instead of a few really high paying posts, it has been diluted to be spread to more than a few more accounts.

Well those accounts that are gaining steem are also voting on content they think is good, so curies work does not end just with distribution of steem. There is a big network effect that results in a much wider dispersal of value in the site that comes from the content creators that Curie has supported. I think when you look at it from that perspective that Curie has only added to the network.

Thanks for letting us know more about @curie. I think this project have an important role in this early stage of Steemit. I can only imagine the amount of work and time looking for quality posts!

I've read a few criticisms of Curie recently, and wondered. I qualified for it once, but only once, so I don't have much of an axe to grind.

The main complaint (other than a skeptical , "The curators are probably raking in millions"), seems to be, "This hammer doesn't work very well for turning screws, so it's not a very good hammer."

We need a wide range of active human curation to change the course of Steemit from a random chance bot farm to a viable community that is building value for STEEM by creating valuable content.

We need a wide range of active human curation to change the course of Steemit from a random chance bot farm to a viable community that is building value for STEEM by creating valuable content.

Sums it up nicely :) if there's a bot algorithm that's capable of signalling decent posts.. that'll be great.

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