Perhaps we need to speak as one?

in community •  3 months ago  (edited)

I try to stay abreast of all things Steem, but at times - things simply go over my head. I need to see them in action and watch how the application affects me and others around me.

This is sometimes good, and sometimes bad. For HardFork 20, I think we all know that seeing things in action were pretty devastating for newbies. Necessary for the future? Yes, we've been told that now, our platform will be much more scalable for the future. But maybe, just maybe - the timing wasn't exactly right?

It seemed to me that we took an awfully big hit. As the founder of a community almost entirely filled with newbies - perhaps my perspective was a little skewed. However, I know that people like @shadowspub, @simplymike and myself (along with countless other unsung heroes) handed out delegations to newbies as fast and carefully as we could, in order to help them stay and keep our platform from losing people as quickly as we were signing them on. Were we successful? I don't know. I know that we lost a lot of good people who were enjoying the platform.

The reality of that makes me pause a bit on HF21, specifically on the content rewards proposal. HF21 will move the current rewards from 75 (author) 25 (curator) to 50/50.

I'm concerned that though this push for greater curation rewards is intending to put a greater emphasis on rewarding the recognition of quality content - that what will actually end up happening is a loss, once again, to the small accounts.

Small accounts already have small percentages of the curation rewards because their rewards are based on their vote (which... is small). However, large accounts will be taking an even larger chunk of the curation rewards, since now more is available to them.

Is this not the makings of "the rich keep getting richer, while the poor keep getting poorer"? Will this cause an even greater divide between the Steemit classes, making it MORE difficult for newbies to grow? At least with 75% author rewards, we are giving Steemians the chance to make their content attractive enough to lure curators. We ALREADY have a system in place that encourages quality content. Abuse will always happen and can never be truly eradicated from a system. Why are we making it that much harder on the people who are really trying to produce good content?

Especially when their small curation rewards won't make up for what they're losing in author rewards. Are we really considering taking from the poor and giving to the rich?

This proposed 50/50 change may or may not work to the end that it intends to implement. That's not the point of this post. The point of this post is this:

There are enough people who are worried about this change that I think it would be wise to table this change for now, and consider it for another Hard Fork.

There is enough going on in HF21 that will bring potential progress -WITHOUT adding in this curation rewards change. For the sake of the community, (that is mostly minnows with small votes, and therefore small percentages of the curation rewards) let's allow them to grow instead of the continued slaughter that seems to be focused mainly on them.

I know that there are a lot of people that feel this way - but are there enough voices to be heard? Instead of talking amongst ourselves, let's just see how many people agree that we should wait on the change from 75/25 to 50/50 rewards.

If you think we should wait on this change and take it out of HF21, please simply put your name as a comment below. If we have enough voices, perhaps our witnesses who represent our community will speak for us.

Thanks for reading! Long Live Steem! 🎉

P.S. I had considered not writing this. I don't like drama, don't want to stir the pot, and quite frankly - feared that it might cause retribution! And then I reconsidered. If I can't speak my heart and mind on the platform that I love, out of fear of being silenced , then this isn't the platform that I thought it was. If I would rather stay silent than possibly effect change, then I am more concerned for myself than my community. And so - I spoke.


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@dreemsteem

I agree. 100% and you have a full vote from me on this. It took me more than 18 months to reach my current status and with already minimal returns on my posts which are set to 50/50, I don't relish the idea of further shrinkage. I was plankton with HF20 and thanks to a delegation from @lynncoyle1 was able to build up a little again and return it when she needed it for someone else. The current structure already makes it difficult for newbies to get going - so much so if they have a great introductory post and respond/engage with comments as all "good" Steemians should, they run out of Mana so quickly and it takes days to replenish.

The result:

Loss of momentum, disillusionment and another wasted account.

I, too, do not believe that the increase in curation rewards will result in better quality. Nor is it going to address the issue of buying votes. On the contrary, I think it will have the opposite effect: those who can afford to buy the votes, will. The same applies to the downvotes - they are not going to stop; nor is the spam. Let's be realistic, the Steemworld is simply a microcosm of the real world and full of folk who will, can, and do, find a way to buck the system. How this is dealt with is a governance matter over which my friend @quillfire has opined, some would say, ad nauseum, but give him more than his due: he’s thought about it, said it and it makes sense. More sense than what is proposed by HF21. And no, he didn’t tell me to come over here and sing his praises….

Another point: we support our mates - that's also human. We support posts that they enjoy and/or which resonates for us and them. That's also human. You can change the technology as much as you like, but in the end, it's designed by humans for humans and most of us have feet of clay. I know I do.

If I am offered the opportunity to get an upvote from a whale if I post a link on his twitter feed or on one of his posts, will I pass it up because it may or may not resonate for him? Hell, no. Why, because that single vote will double, triple or even quadruple a pay out. For someone who puts time and effort into long posts for a pay out that is sometimes less than $1, well, you catch my drift.

Lastly, on the issue of quality, there are so many different views on quality which is an entirely subjective matter, and even if one were to set criteria for quality, these are subject to interpretation. Let’s look at Demming’s definition of quality, viz., fit for purpose and it begs the questions: what purpose and whose?

From what I have read, and I admit that the tech stuff is entirely lost on me, so I deal in principles rather than technicalities, I have to agree that HF21 will benefit the benefactors and not the intended beneficiaries.

@fionasfavourites

PS I am calling over @nickyhavey, @blockurator, @cheese4ead, @bengy, @zekepickleman and @thekittygirl in the hopes that they will add their 2c worth.

When it comes to hard forks, I kind of feel like the dog backing at the mailman. Not really understanding the function of the event, and having it happen no matter how much I bark.

I can definitely see the big established accounts getting even richer as they can often just switch the algorithm to vote more an earlier and reap the lions share of the increased curation. While intending to help the little folks, they will now get .0011 instead of .001 curation reward for their 100% tiny upvote. So, they will make .01$ more a day. This will not even be detected and will not encourage anyone to stay or feel more empowered.

We definitely do need more curation but not at the expense of author rewards. Dumb dumb dumb.

@zekepickleman

We definitely do need more curation but not at the expense of author rewards. Dumb dumb dumb.

Precisely!

Well said @fionasfavourites, and I totally agree :) Plus you're sweet to continually mention me with the delegation! I was happy to help. @luzycypher did it for me when I first started out and I was so grateful for the boost; it's all part of the pay it forward attitude :)

And @quillfire loves a positive mention anytime haha He totally deserves it!

Thanks @lynncoyle1, but it's important that it's not just acknowledged, but what a difference it made - to keeping me on Steemit. As for @quillfire, he must be on holiday because he's been awfully silent during this. He's got some serious catching up to do!

Be well

Loading...

well thought out!

Thanks, it's been brewing for a while! :D

I'm sitting here - nodding my head. exactly exactly exactly.

I'm working on another post with some numbers.. so people won't have to wonder what will happen - they can see exactly what WILL happen.

and then they can choose for themselves.

Thanks for your contribution to the conversation! and for tagging people you think might be concerned too! :)

It's good to know that I'm not entirely alone in my thinking. :D

I look forward to your next post - I hope you will tag me as I'd not like to miss it.

Thanks for going out to bat on this.

@zekepickleman

We definitely do need more curation but not at the expense of author rewards. Dumb dumb dumb.

Precisely!

Thanks for the tag, but I added my 2¢ a while ago! 🙂

I don't think it's going to do what they want it to do. It could very well lead to more curation and shorter author posts. My two cents: Narrative!

Yes, Narrative. I am going to have to pay it more attention

Posted using Partiko Android

it's good to see witnesses involved in the discussion.
Your voices are important on this.

  ·  3 months ago (edited)

Agreed 100%
Makes only rich richer and drives new users and middle class users away.
But they don't want to hear our voices.
But they will hear when the steem price goes down more and more..
But, then it's to late..
HF21 and downvote pool is not social, it's the opposite.
Steem is getting more and more a testing platform for dapps and tokens.
Have a nice day
Tom
@zanoni

Thanks for visiting Tom!!! I wish it were under different circumstances, to be sure.

I agree with you and after being here since Nov 2016... It really saddens me that so many of the higher ups can vote for this with a straight face

But...you're right.

We don't matter.

Sadly, it's proven in this vote.

Posted using Partiko Android

But my hope is Voice coming soon, it will be a game changer and maybe the biggest problem for Steem..
Who laughs at least, laughs best

Posted using Partiko Android

I haven't been following it enough to know what to think.. Still too new to everything and completely ignoring the math about it..

But just for fun..

!dramatoken

@elsiekjay

I have shared the same concerns so many times but nobody seems to care when you don't have the power. Should it go through, Steem will be as good as dead. What is a platform without creators?
#no5050

@elsiekjay... How I wish that we were both wrong about this.

Well, at least we will all become AMAZING curators! lol Think of how much TIME we will have to read now! Maybe that's what we all need to do.... Go find a bunch of unknown newbies and give them all 100% upvotes.

Then - since we are the only ones upvoting - we will give half our upvote to them - and half will come back to us!

THE FOLLOWING PROPOSAL IS FACETIOUS, BUT I CAN TOTALLY SEE PEOPLE DOING THIS
Writing my Fireflies posts take me approximately 3 hours each ? and I usually make about $2 on them? sometimes $1.50 Don't forget to take away the new 50% curation rewards! So I keep 75 cents... divided by the 180 minutes it takes to write? You're looking at about 0.005 cents per minute.

My @fundition posts get a nice payout because @fundition is so faithful to support that project!!! Around $18 usually? so after the new 50% curation - thats down to $9 left. (its actually less - but lets just leave it there for the sake of the example! lol) The real life work I do for my project? oh... about 8 hours of work in a day. Add in 2 hours of videoing, another hour at least of editing. Writing the post is another hour... So that's 12 hours. $9. I think that's 1 cent an minute.

Now... I remove all my delegations from all the communities and newbies I'm supporting (why? well of course so I can have more value in my upvote!) And now - I have a 5000 SP upvote.

That's around 8 cents now? I read a nice little post from a newbie... takes me a minute. upvote them at 100%.

They get 4 cents, I get 4 cents. sounds perfect. lol I mean - most newbies barely make 2 cents on their posts. This sounds likes it is AMAZING for the whole community! My husband doesn't yell at me for spending all my time writing posts and making pennies... I get to support all these amazing new newbies... and now I have lots more time to go swimming!

well..... this WAS total sarcasm. Now I might be seeing this as brilliant plan!!!! LOL You know the old saying... can't beat 'em.... join 'em! LOL

In all seriousness, I'd rather give my Fireflies chapters away for free to interested subscribers, than have someone make more money off me for adding nothing more to the mix. I will most likely halt that story on Steemit, and just give it out directly via a mailing list for anyone interested. It's a matter of principle really. Curation is fantastic, and I'm happy for it. But writing one well-developed post takes significantly more time than curating that same one well-developed post. It should be rewarded heavier. That's my opinion.

Unfortunately, here's what they don't tell you about Steem... Opinions are stake-weighted ;)

@crimsonclad - i'm about to comment to you too - but i'll be referencing this comment LOLOL (so you can find it)

I never thought I'd say this, but Voice Might actually be the better option. After all eos has some value to it. I am actually very eager to see how it will span out when it's officially launched, it may as well be the steemit killer if they go ahead with this 50/50 system, or perhaps creators will go to another platform and add value to it. Who Knows, Nobody wants to spend such amount of time only to have their rewards significantly reduced. It's madness.

Personally I might stop creating content daily and just invest my time else where.

I will definitely spend less time creating content.

Maybe I'll spend my time curating and commenting on newbie posts. Or...maybe not?? Why give them a false sense of hope? Maybe it's actually prolonging the inevitable to support newbies?

I guess this just makes you really take a look at your time as very valuable and see where it is best spent.

Will be thinking about that for a few days for sure...

Posted using Partiko Android

Your calculations forget one thing, @dreemsteem, which is that you can also strategically self-vote so that you receive some of those curation rewards. This is not gaming the system, it is using the system as it is designed for your benefit.

For all curators, this is the future; yes, curate manually but then add your favourite writers to an auto-voter and start to earn the long term rewards of your earlier efforts. This may not have been your original plan but it is a good plan - the best plan on this blockchain with these rules.

;-) Take care

You know that they want people to stop self-voting right? LOL and they are encouraging the use of the free downvotes so that people can remove the rewards from people who self-vote.

downvotes aren't even free yet - and people are doing this (one of the commenters on my posts this week is doing this TO earn more rewards and its getting punished)

i'm not saying that self-voting is good or bad. I think if its a good comment - then self-vote! but guess what - we all have the ability to self-vote bad comments too.

and that's where downvoting comes in. which WILL be abused and will NOT be used on whales out of fear of retribution.

see how this is not a good system? its set up to fear whales, and so they win.

whales are not bad!!!!

whales are awesome.

but bad whales are REALLY bad. LOL

you know what? let me restate that. greedy steemians are really bad. across all the classes.

so i did think of what you said - but i think there will be the downvote police who are busy looking in your wallets and seeing how to take what you have so they can justify "redistributing" the rewards. ....messy.

One other thing. lol. Curators do not automatically get 50% of their upvote, just as now there is no guarantee of 25% return. the curation algorithm itself is not being messed with, just that the curation pool will be double the size. Hence strategic voting will still count to get larger curation rewards.

not entirely correct... curation is stake based.

when a whale votes - they take the lions share of that curation pool on your post.

so when they upvote themselves - they get 75% and then the majority of that 25% curation too.

change it to 50/50 and its the exact same for whales. this does not halt bad behavior by whales - it gives the same result for them while punishing smaller accounts who cannot compete with the large stake based votes.

i can explain more if you like when i get home? we can continue the discussion :)

Exactly.

Posted using Partiko Android

Looking at all of my paid-out posts from the last month and discarding the highest- and lowest-earning posts ($0.28 and $4.44) as anomalies (which they are), my posts are only earning $1.36 on average. Of course, I only get 75% of that, and if it is slashed... 😱

YET... people tell me all the time that I write good posts, they appreciate the hours of research that goes into many of them, that they learn a lot from reading my writing, yet the payouts do not reflect much appreciation (although I sincerely appreciate every little upvote I get!!!). 😕

Without well-researched /well-thought, quality content, what will we have left...?!?!?

yes @thekittygirl

I'm working on a new post now... so that we can see the numbers

Of course you commented - I should have read properly. And that 2c is worth $200!

people tell me all the time that I write good posts

Without well-researched /well-thought, quality content, what will we have left...?!?!?

Yes, precisely. On all counts.

@dreemsteem ~ If you remove the "unity" or "steem" tag and replace it with #palnet, your post will be visible on the https://palnet.io front-end as well!

ok will do!

@imealien I agree!!! 👍

Posted using Partiko Android

Thanks for the tag @fionasfavourites and great post @dreemsteem but I'm not going to mince my words here.

HF20 was dog shit for new users. Way to stop anyone with a new account being able to do ANYTHING without a delegation of at least 100SP to make it usable.

HF21 proposals - premium bull shit (yes, I upgraded the shit to the highest of the high). Content creators don't exactly get big rewards as it stands and now with SPS taking 10% away from the rewards pool, the curation rewards slashing another 25% away and this convergent linear gobbledegook will mean that anyone who doesn't get more than 12STEEM on their post payouts could be 33% worse off.

Remind me again why content creators should stay on this platform should HF21 go ahead and hope to make anything substantial?

Content creators may as well post their content elsewhere and just set up steem auto to follow the big curation trails and get maximum return for curation for absolutely no effort whatsoever.

I'd even be "happy" with 2/3 author 1/3 curator but 75/25 is actually pretty good. Whales would get their "money" back after 4 x 100% upvotes each day which is not an inconsiderate amount - and curation doesn't cost them anything, it's literally clicking the up button if you like the article!

We all know what the solution is.

Flick the switch and turn off bid bots.

If that can't be done then for sure, the next best solution is to give manual curation initiatives (e.g. curie, helpie, c-squared etc) the backing of these bid bot accounts (which take up >30% of the rewards pool) so that the trending feed is filled with varied content that can give people both inside and outside of steem something to look forward to rather than seeing the same people posting over again or steemcentric apps which mean nothing to anyone outside of steem.

That's my 2 cents (or is it 1 cent now that the curation is 50/50 :) )

@nickyhavey I knew I could count on you. Here is the follow up post from @dreemsteem which I shall read properly when I am at my desk in a few hours (it's 05:51...)
https://partiko.app/@dreemsteem/now-you-can-see-the-numbers

Posted using Partiko Android

Yes I just read the article but I've read a few that show the numbers and it all kinda paints the same picture.

Author rewards are getting wrecked, curators are getting doubled.

I can't say I disagree with your closing sentence to bengy either. We probably joined this platform a little too late as our accounts aren't worth too much hey.

Posted using Partiko Android

I joined early but grew mostly by sweat equity. So it took time.

I just recently became a dolphin and was super proud of the accomplishment.

Eh. Comme ci, comme ca.

I'm sure this won't be the last mistake that's made in a hard fork. I'm surprised we crawled past HF20, but we did. Barely.

Posted using Partiko Android

What is sweat equity? Not come across that term before.

Congratulations on the dolphin status, it's something I may get to if I stick around and don't get as hard fucked by the hard fork as I'm being initially lead to believe.

And the fact we barely made it past HF20 should sound alarm signals about these proposals for HF21 but I don't know what it will take for these "decision makers" to do the things I mentioned in my first comment seeing as that's the feedback of many authors I've spoken to.

Posted using Partiko Android

Oh sweat equity means the time you invested vs money you've invested

I think i probably have invested about $600 towards my dolphin status?

The rest was all through post payouts!!!!

I sure hope you're right too. It makes.me sad that people who have just come in the last year never got to see how AMAZING this place was at one time
They've just been hit harder and harder since HF20.

Too bad ...cuz I can tell you...before that!? There was nonsense, for sure!!! There ALWAYS will be drama lol. You can never get rid of people who like to ruin it for everyone...but at least you could just circle around your tribe and ignore the riff raff, and have a blast!

It's not the same anymore... Greed has a way of permeating everything.

Posted using Partiko Android

You're right about greed and you do really have to turn a blind eye to some shenanigans but it's made increasingly difficult with each change that occurs. Just stick with communities you have joined and take it from there.

Hf21 is confirmed to already be happening now so it looks like the preparations need to start happening for people like us. Firstly, pull back any delegations you have to keep your account SP as much as possible so you can get more curation rewards.

Second, get as many posts out now before HF21 so you maximise author payouts.

I haven't invested any money into steem, just transferred some earnings from other sites so I guess my sweat equity is 100% lol.

You're right about greed and you do really have to turn a blind eye to some shenanigans but it's made increasingly difficult with each change that occurs.

Hf21 is confirmed to already be happening now so it looks like the preparations

Posted using Partiko Android

Yup...so I am preparing on my side too. We all need preparations! :)

Posted using Partiko Android

Exactly..I was the founder of a community that was almost 75% newbies because we sought out and helped them, one at a time.

Before HF20, our retention rate was 75%? As compared to steemits of 9%... So we were doing something very right.

After HF20? The place slowly became a ghost town. It is slowly helping one Steemian at a time again, but I wonder if it will ever see those amazing retention rates again...

I'm a bit disillusioned with these changes "for the community" that only help the few.

Sickened really. But...I don't think anyone is listening to us 🙃

Posted using Partiko Android

75% is an amazing effort on retention, well done for that. Sorry you got hard fucked as well by HF20.

I'd say the place quickly became a ghost town after that as noone could post or saw the awful quality content on trending and thought "eff that, I'm leaving". Don't blame them. I'd do the same if my motivations were just about earning money but I wanted to improve my writing skills by joining this (initial) blogging platform and meet like minded people that I couldn't find on fb or Twitter so I'll be sticking around... But only if the communities do.

It seems like there are enough dapps around to keep me on here like travelfeed, dsound, powerhousecreatives, actifit.

The minute you get in the cross hairs of those that do listen, brace yourself for flags as that's what happened to me when I started being vocal about bid bots.

Decentralisation hey... Doesn't work with people. End of. You need a set of guidelines for the community to follow. Anarchy is not a good way to progress as we have seen on multiple occasions.

Posted using Partiko Android

75% retention is freaking amazing!!!! We were so proud!!!

And our community was EVERYWHERE because a huge principle for us was.. support, comment, enjoy!!!

It wasnt about the money .. until they made it about the money.

But look!!! Now we have a scalable chain!!!! Woo hoooo ....we just have to wait for the people to come rushing in now.

Still waiting...

Oops.

Posted using Partiko Android

I completely agree. If this goes through at 75/25 we will lose. I understand they are trying to fix a few things, but this one will not help. If it foes through, not only will those who care about newbies find themselves scrambling to find delegation but they will be trying to come up with more ways to reward them so they will get a little more.

This however means that the new people will only see less of those rewards. This is a horrible shame to penalize those who we have been begging to come join. Those i have helped and encouraged to join in the past have almost all quit because it does not worth their time and efforts; now with HF21 they are all saying they will delete their accounts. It is a shame really that it is coming to this.

Thank you for speaking out @dreemsteem
Ren

Thank you for writing this post

In any complex system there will be always be disagreements specially in the early days. Our STEEM is no different

Bitcoin had few different hard forks
ETH had one
Monera had many

I was spend almost 17 hours a day for 7 months building Dtube community until I got distracted 70% steemit inc layover where I offered ned to that I could happily work for them for free for 2 years.

I really don't want to get distracted by HF21 because my vision of $7.77 with STEEM with PushBook Startup needs all of me

Sorry I'm getting back to building STEEM PushBook

Thanks for visiting! And I'm glad you can keep your focus @nathanmars! I hope that all that you're doing is not for naught!!! Hope that we eventually have a platform where you can bring your amazing stamina to... and reap the rewards of your hard work !!

Posted using Partiko Android

You make your own luck if you stay at it long enough

True entrepreneurs don’t fail because they stay at it

True entrepreneurs never give up...but they know exactly when they are being given a raw deal.

I am not giving up in the least...it's not my style. But I'm not going to have 33% taken from my rewards and handed to whales and thank them for it.

It's wrong. Period. And everyone knows it.

And they should PULL it from the proposal. Because the people have spoken.

Posted using Partiko Android

True, @nathanmars and @dreemsteem, but the ability to articulate a problem is also part of finding a solution - which may be a personal one rather than a community one - and that means "staying at it" but perhaps on a different road than at the start.

Changes in the economy, whether cryptoeconomy or real life, may warrant a change in plans.

Like I hinted in other comments, and expanded in my articles (today and a few months ago (tho few ever listened)) there are ways to make more money and have fun doing it - just different methodology ;-)

it requires a discussion that they seem unwilling to have.

it's full speed ahead - take it or leave it.

i don't appreciate that mentality and find it disrespectful of all the people who poured their time, money, and energy here. not just the whales. we all did, across the classes.

I used to have fun here - and it had nothing to do with money.

still doesn't! LOL has to do with respect!!! :)

Yes, I think many commented at the time that the P in EIP should have been Plan rather than Proposal (as it wasn't a proposal under discussion.)

Thing is, the ideas in EIP have been promoted for months, maybe even a year or more - it hasn't improved but it knocked down the door - albeit a steem door.

I expect the usual to happen agreement about something and nothing comes of it.

The truth is this is a ploy t keep the major portion of the rewards to those with stake. It is nothing more than that, No matter what words are used to describe what the process involves or the result it is said to give, It wil give a higher reward to those with the power already,

It is a scheme to reward those who have more vested, plain and simple. New people who struggle to gain any kind of reward they can give to others. Will struggle even harder, reducing the retention of the user base unless the individual have a finance to invest.

Those who recieve a total vote of $1 lose 25% of that and get 0.75c. lets reduce that even more for your effort to you only getting 0.50c for your time and effort.

It seems it will take the person reading and being entertained by your content will put as much effort and time into reading it as you did.

The reason why you or us no body's are listened to is simply, We won't join together. We will do feck all to make a change and wait for someone else to do it. We have been through the process of forming a committee and doing elections to get something going. Why is that power of the people not speaking up for the people?
Oh wait Slipped my mind, Controlled by those who have a higher stake.

i partially agree with you @thehive.... but...at the same time - I just wrote another post. LOL

why? because maybe if people SEE what it means TO THEM and not just them.... but see the VISUAL representation of what it means for others - and why.... maybe - just maybe - we can halt this ridiculousness.

Hope you didn't read any of that as against anything you said,
Ultimately. I think we need to grow a strength to represent them. This is something I have voiced from day 1. Without it, you don't have a voice.

I also am against the so-called EIP.

Posted using Partiko Android

i would imagine that a lot of us in the RED column would not really see the benefit! LOL

@shadowspub

I found the responses to @cervantes poll of a month ago interesting but have noticed several witnesses mention they have reservations about aspects of HF21.

I have put a new poll up that more options for those reservations to be expressed.

https://steemit.com/dpoll/@shadowspub/poll-for-the-wtinesses-on-hf21

Anyone can participate but really want to see the top 20 respond which is response to the community.

I'd love to see only the top 20 respond - so we can keep it very clear! :)

although - i guess we can always write a post with ONLY their responses so it is just as clear!

To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.

Brought to you by @tts. If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.


Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!

To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.

I've been reading some of the arguments for and against the changes and I think that people on both sides care and have good points but we didn't get into this space to side on caution. I know there's resistance to change because we don't want to lose what we have and the smaller accounts etc but what we have isn't good enough. Sad to say but I'd rather lose small accounts along the way (which would happen in any case at a natural rate), if we can grow exponentially

There are far more people that don't know about us than do so the upside of gaining new users outweigh the keeping of the few, as cruel as it sounds. I do also think STEEM and steemit will only be a catchment area and the other dapps and scot communities will be where its at

It gives us options and if you don't like whats happening on steem find a tribe, maybe become a big PAL user, that's the beauty of it all. STEEM is the gateway drug but shouldnt be the only getaway or drug, with all thats happening theres no no signle point of failure and we wont feel HFs as hard as we used to.

Just my 2 cents and nothing but love for ya!

Love for you too! Not sure I agree with the fact that we would lose small accounts along the way - Welcome Wagon's retention rate was in the 75% range - where Steemit's was 9%. After HF 20 - ours dropped down to about 25%. The changes they made definitely pushed small accounts out. I fear its about to happen again. There is only so much winnowing that a platform can withstand before the foundation crumbles. I'm not saying we can't consider it later. I'm saying there's enough change in the proposal WITHOUT that - to still make us grow. Thanks for adding your 2 cents! But it's about to be 1 cent if we go through with the 50/50 hehehehe (kidding)

small accounts have equal opportunity to gain steem via 50/50 , I have not read but the big thing that affects the content for me is the way the rewards are calculated due to the curve so more votes and bigger give them a better payout or something ... This forces people to just do what sheep do and follow 200 other peoples vote for the sake of it. $1 with 100 votes vs $1 with a single vote is kinda what I have stuck, they don't seem like they will be equal. Anyhow. I got my spycam, popcorn, diapers and will wait and see.

Not really

I can explain why... But probably will in a post.

Too.much for a comment

There were a couple more complicating factors than the hard fork... The complete collapse of the crypto ecosystem probably also contributed!

I don't agree. All of the people who left here were not losing thousands on bitcoin (or any other coin) They left here because the ones who came to make money - were no longer able to make money.

The ones who were willing to make money LATER - and have fun meeting people NOW ... were willing to hold off on the "big payouts" that they might have been mistaken about. (clearly were mistaken lol) But the community kept them here. It was fun to read, post, comment, and slowly build this new family for them

When it became clear that they couldn't earn real money, and that now they ALSO couldn't afford (in RCs) to have fun with that community anymore without paying to play... they had no choice.

I really don't think the collapse of the crypto ecosystem had anything to do with the people like that - because most of them were not interested / had the ability to be cryptoinvestors.

Steem was different. they could enjoy themselves AND earn slowly.

then it got flipped on them.

(and its about to get flipped again)

Fair enough, I am mistaken there! You are right, the people joining at that time were already (should already..) have known that crypto was now diving.

Change, always scary, very true....
I know what you are saying, but there's this nagging thought in my head:

What happens when more and more content creators walk away?
Already, the HF21 is proposing to take out of the rewards pool for the SPS.
ON TOP OF THAT< there is this discussion to move even more Rewards out by cutting rewards for Content creators. We don't know what the Economic Impact of the platform will be the first change, in Funding the Worker Proposal System (SPS).
NOW, to add even more uncertainty, and drive away even more users, and content creators? It's too much at once.

As both a creator and curator, i see the good and bad.
BUT, after HF20, and the HUGE losses of users, I am not sure how many more users Steem can afford to lose.

I am with you @bluefinstudios and have left a loooong comment on this post. Thanks for calling me over.

It's in implements phase already I think there's nothing we can do about it, other than to hope it turns out well

it's only in it's beginning phase.

ONE of the biggest things we can do, is to discuss it, and let others know what potential impact might be. It's change, and sometimes that's good. BUT, not all change is. Remember Hard Fork 20?

There is ALWAYS time to change. Nothing has been implemented yet.

If they find an error in their test net - do you think they wont take the time to fix it?

Its the same for this discussion. If they find that enough people are concerned... don't you think they need to take the time to fix that?

@jaynie

I really think this is going to make the whole bus go backwards if it gets implemented.

I think you and me and everyone here who is sickened by this..... Are 100% CORRECT.

but take a look at the people who will benefit ... And then notice how they are the ones all for it....and Voting on it.

our voices no longer matter. Hmmm did they ever?

Removing votes will not make a difference to them... But as soon as I know definitively who is voting for this, I will be giving my votes to those in opposition, on principle. I don't care if they "feel" the lack of my vote.

Representatives should be representing the people who voted for them and it seems like a LOT of people aren't feeling represented.

Posted using Partiko Android

Let's get our terminology right, this is a TAX ON CREATORS.

A decrease in creator rewards and an increase in curation rewards will destroy Steem's vision of being a chain that pays creators and will turn it into yet another ROI staking token.

I dont want this libertarian dream to turn into tezos2.0 just because stakeholders want greater ROI.

Roi WAS NOT THE POINT OF STEEM
PROOF OF BRAIN WAS THE POINT OF STEEM

Also: the WPS has no cap, meaning ste can funnel into it indefinitely without stopping, meaning that in the event of a development drought or gridlock, funds will keep stacking up, effectively being inflation for inflation's sake.

Also, They propose BURNING EXCESS TAX MONEY, as a means of handling a bloated treasury. Burning tax dollars is chain suicide, who the hell would agree to burning their hard earned tax dollars?

The WPS needs 2 things to be successful
1 - a hard cap on size.
2 - a tax refund for creators who have contributed over a certain amount to the treasury.

Deal with excess funds by REFUNDING THEM, not burning them.

In its current state, I vote NO on HF20

Posted using Partiko Android

so much here - i've used your words in a few other comments!!! thanks for your interaction!!

I'm interested to know what will happen when all these content creators leave?

((She sighs))

I think we know exactly what will happen...and that's why I sigh along with you.

Posted using Partiko Android

we'll see what happens.. just going for the ride.. really have no say... :)

well, if you'd like to know.
In the last 30 days, you made 2.62 SP on curation rewards.
In the last 30 days, you made 39.15 SP on author rewards.

What they are proposing is, changing the curation rewards to 50% instead of 25%
so.... if you continued what you are doing now, that would jump up to 5.24 SP for curation rewards.

and your author rewards would drop by 33%. which is 25.839.

They are hoping that this new proposal will get rid of the bad guys, and lift all the good guys.

That has really worked well in the past so I'm sure it will work well now! (sarcasm lol)

(by the way - where your author rewards are getting diverted to? large accounts who hold the majority of the stake. When they upvote - now they will double their curation rewards just like you. But yours is doubling from 2.6 to 5.2? Theirs is doubling from 3000 to 6000 -that is ONE example. but you can check the chart and see exactly what that looks like)

but happy days for all :)

I hope that you continue to enjoy the ride. I truly do. Some people aren't really aware of all this and they are happy! I hope that joy follows you Miss @rebeccabe! :)

well that's no good...lol..guess I will start self upvoting :)

Hope that gives a little back to ya!! 😊

Posted using Partiko Android

!SHADE 2
Thanks for sharing on Pimp Your Post Thursday

Congratulations @dreemsteem!
Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:

  • Comments - Ranked 2 with 92 comments

Agreed. Let the 50/50 rewards system play out on Palnet for a while and see how it goes. Then, make the case for it being implemented here.

Posted using Partiko iOS

@fredkese

I honestly believe the 50/50 split isn't necessary now or ever, but I doubt if my voice makes any difference

Your voice matters to me.

And to many others!!

It just doesn't matter to the majority making the decisions

🙃

Posted using Partiko Android

Lol, just as bad

Posted using Partiko Android

Hmmm yes. 🤔 Lol

Posted using Partiko Android

😑

Posted using Partiko Android

Adding my name for the zero value it’s worth! Hugs to you and thank you for this post that really lays it out.

Oh I missed this!!!

I feel the same way... Why bother adding our voices to anything when it's clear they don't matter... Lol

But... We can always say we did what we felt was best and didn't remain silent.

That's something!

I've read countless hf21 related posts over the last few days trying to keep an open mind but nope, I don't see this hard fork(speciall having the "intended" results. I sure hope I'm wrong and that we'll laugh at this one day but as someone who's familiar with payouts right around the threshold, I'm highly doubtful and would be even more terrified if it wasn't for dapps such steemmonsters, actifit, busy etc that still dish out hope.

But the way, would such dapps benefit more post hf21? Well at least that would be a plus as they deserve it, though I assume they'd also lose some users who'd just be fed up with the system.

I get that changes need to be made and probably a lot of them. But making them all at the expense of mostly newbies and small accounts, and at the same time is just too drastic, potentially leading to a mass exodus. I've been told that the steem ecosystem is just like a reflection of the real World and really, what did I expect? The rich shall get richer, so was written in stone.

Anyways, @ange.nkuru

I completely agree. Why so much so fast? Why such a rush to burn the city down? It reminds me when a boss wants to fire you, but can't... So they make it REALLY hard for you to stay, so that you quit.

I'm not a quitter, but I'm also not a masochist.

If they want us to leave, they're making it very obvious that they're holding all the cards and can do whatever they want.... And we can take it or leave it.

Posted using Partiko Android

I completely agree. Why so much so fast? Why such a rush to burn the city down? It reminds me when a boss wants to fire you, but can't... So they make it REALLY hard for you to stay, so that you quit.

I'm not a quitter, but I'm also not a masochist.

If they want us to leave, they're making it very obvious that they're holding all the cards and can do whatever they want.... And we can take it or leave it.

Posted using Partiko Android

I had missed this post completely. Glad I see it in time, though, because I totally agree

I know exactly why we agree.... Because our hearts have always been the same regarding community, newbies and the poor decisions regarding their sustainability.

Sad to tell you that the next three posts of mine only get progressively sad to me.

It's been wonderful working alongside you (even though we didn't interact a lot!!!) But we were on the same mission to help steem from.the bottom up

I hope you have such good fortune in fighting the good fight, my friend!!!

Warmest wishes,
Dreemie

I don't know... I haven't completely been following this, but I do in principle agree with reward structure change (this might come back and bite me later!).

My biggest problem with Steem at the moment is the fact that there is no closing of the economic loop. What is the benefit in buying and holding Steem? At present, generally very little other than on chain prestige. This is not really a sustainable economy then, if the rational choice is to sell rather than buy.

Having a larger curation reward might encourage one to have a larger SP to collect more of the stake (and the sps will help develop dapps that encourage the purchase of Steem).

I know that it feels bad that authors will initially lose out, but at the moment, the rational choice is to collect Steem to sell... Not to hold and not to buy.

Perhaps someone can suggest to me otherwise!

@bengy

I think that the value of Steem, the role of dapps and the quality of content are somewhat different things. I also think that the motivations for joining and staying and/or leaving bear thinking about. I saw a recent post from @aggroed (https://steemit.com/witness/@aggroed/is-hf21-a-trap) in which he argues the necessity for HF21 and at the same time extols the virtues of communities.

I suspect that those of us who have blogged for years for the love of it, as opposed to a monetary return, and who cannot invest in Steem, have a completely different perspective. I came in the hopes of using sweat equity to build up a head of Steem. I was a late adopter and it didn't work for me. Others, whose currencies have even less value than the ZAR, can, and do use sweat equity. However, where that is not possible, why do we stay?

Because of the community.

Because of the promise of monetisation. Ultimately.

HF21, after the damage of HF20, I have to view with jaundice. MHO.

Agreed, community is what keeps many around.. And that is an important part, but we can't expect everyone to have that be enough. There does need to be real economic value in Steem if only to pay for the servers that host the content and the computers and electricity of the witnesses to secure and validate the chain.

@bengy

There is an additional element: Steemit would not function if it were not for the people on the blockchain. There needs to be some return for them and if I were to view my engagement here from the perspective of ROI - and purely in economic terms - and I include sweat equity because in my line of business, time is money - I should have dumped it a long time ago.

Why do I stay, in addition to the community? Well some of that has to do with the dapps that I use and which make it seamless to post to the blockchain and which offer me a value-add. What I will add, which is as important is that I was blogging/microblogging from those platforms before Steemit, so its part of that which keeps me here.

One last point: If the propsect of realising returns for the sweat equity does not improve and I'm offered other opportunities that are commensurate with what it's worth, well, that, too is a no brainer. I'm gone. I'll get @jaynie's boot and probably end up off the platform.

Fiona

and now that these changes will decrease the economic value for most small-medium sized accounts.... lol

it really doesn't make sense.

If steem needed money to keep running and had to take a little from everyone in proportion to their size... go for it

but the money that is being taken from authors is not going back into the pool evenly distributed.

curation rewards are stake based.

for the large account that gives a huge upvote - and then gets curation back? they're getting back double.

for the small account that gives their "huge" upvote - (100% for them, but still only .01) their curation rewards are being doubled... from what? 0.001 to 0.002?

but the huge accounts - THEIR curation rewards are being doubled too. from $2.00 to $4.00??? or much more???

it doesn't seem very fair to me.

  ·  3 months ago (edited)

Yes, definitely in the short term the effect is to decrease the non-big accounts get. However, it does give some reason (albeit small at the moment) to use the author earnings to power up rather than to sell.

Anyway, I only know that economies are much more complex and non-linear systems than what many expect. I only know that there will be unexpected results, quite probably not the ones we expect... And that I just have no idea!

... Which does lead me to wonder why an economist or two isn't consulted about these economic changes? It appears that in the crypto space (not just Steem) we fall into the trap that there are easy and simplistic cause and effect...but that is off topic, just interesting (and not a comment on you, just digressing...).

take a look at the new post... im about to tag you in it.
;)

Well, they hoped that with HF20 - with the limited resource credits - it would force people to pay to play, and we see how well that worked out.

I'm writing a post now to show you exactly how it will affect you. I think numbers are easy to understand when it's right in front of you. But... we'll see.

I also believe that the amount of steem that you'll need to buy and hold in order to make the curation rewards beneficial.... is negligible. If that's the motivation for you to hold steem, I think you're going to be disappointed in your return.

It's not just about authors initially losing out. If everyone was losing, and it was balanced over the whole community - then - we could all take the hit together.

But I think you're going to see that when the rewards are coming from authors - they are not getting dispersed equally over the community. HUGE portions are going into the pockets of curators who ALREADY have a large portion of the curation rewards at 75/25

I'll tag you in the next post. we'll see if we can get a discussion going.. and if I'm wrong - I'd love to be corrected ;)

  ·  3 months ago (edited)

No, I agree that even with these changes that curation rewards are going to be pitiful for an account my size. And I know full well that the amount of Steem that I would need to buy to make it worthwhile would be tremendous...

Hoeve, if this reward distribution was attached to a better way of distributing the curation part (levelling out the SP playing field) it could be interesting... On the other hand, that is also just ripe for abuse... On the other hand, perhaps that is what down vote pool is for...

On the last hand, I'm not really sure how it will be... It is quite different, but I don't think any side has any idea how it will play out in the long term. There are many convincing stories, but all of them have hefty assumptions.

Tag me, I'm curious. But I'll just put it out, I'm a fence sitter on this one... But my point about there needing to be a reason to hold Steem still bothers me, but perhaps this isn't the solution..

not just an account your size.... but its taking from accounts your size and GIVING to large accounts.

that's the biggest problem.

take a look at that chart @bengy.... i knew it would be skewed in favor of big accounts before we made it. but now? its pretty blatant. and i hope that this part of the proposal gets tossed in the garbage. fast.