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RE: Early Christianities Weren't "Orthodox"

in #christianity8 years ago (edited)

It is true that there has been a constant battle throughout history to keep the teachings of Christianity pure. Even in this post we see a heroic attempt to resuscitate long dead heresies at the risk of confusing new readers who are not inclined to spend the years of study necessary to understand which is which.

All of the false documents known during the early centuries were, as Sean says, hotly debated as you would expect (we are all taught to "contend earnestly for the faith.") The important point that this post glosses over is that these heresies were rejected again and again and again...

I would also be negligent not to point out where these arguments come from. They are a field of Islamic apologetics which seek to go back and dig up old Christian heresies that will help support the Muslim teachings that disagree with Christianity. (Not saying this is what motivates Sean, merely that these arguments are characteristic of Muslim apologetics - which is where you can go to find a rich set of rebuttals.) In the Muslim case, they are part of an ages old battle to explain why Muhammad's teachings conflict with the writings of the Apostles and their close associates.

So you should read these posts as an interesting recap of long rejected heresies that were rejected for sound reasons.

That's why we have the test of Apostolic Authority - the requirement that a document be traceable back to an apostle in order to be included in the Bible.

This post turns that principle on its head - using non-authoritative, long rejected writings to attempt to undercut those that are truly traceable back to the apostles. Never forget, that is the test that separates true from false teachings - not the other way around.

The errors here pile up sentence by sentence to the point where I literally have to stop reading in despair - too much to refute, too little time - and no likely reader will endure such a point by point rebuttal if I were to make the effort. (Not to mention that by the time I could write it this whole thread will have disappeared from the short-lived attention span of the Steemit system.)

So, for the sake of the unlikely few students that want to do due diligence about all of this, I'll leave this link here for you.

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/thompson/paul-historical.html

This article as already done the hard scholarly work of rebutting this school of Islamic attack far better than I could do - and it has the virtue of being available right now, while people are still reading this thread!

Here are the two opening paragraphs which may be all you need to see where all this is coming from. If you took the time to read this whole series of posts, you owe it to yourself to devote the much smaller amount of time to reading this single link.

Many Muslim critics assert that the Apostle Paul was not a true Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. They erroneously argue that Paul came in after the real Apostles and took over the scene corrupting Christianity with new foreign teachings. Many Muslims assert that the original message of Jesus and his true followers, their supposed Islamic teaching, was in complete disagreement with Paul’s “new” theology. In contrast to this modern Islamic view the Christian position is that history demonstrates Paul was truly converted to Christianity. Christians argue that the evidence shows he was accepted by the original Apostles and by the earliest Christians as a genuine convert with sound theology who was given an important mission from Christ himself.

In this article I will weigh the evidence that both sides offer. When investigating historical issues it is important to use a reliable method to come to truth. I will be appealing to what is known as the historical method in this article as I argue that there are many strong reasons to affirm Paul’s apostleship and no strong reasons to deny Paul’s apostleship. I will utilize historical principles including the concept of multiple independent attestation, early accounts (i.e., the oldest source material), eyewitness testimony, disinterest statements, and the criterion of embarrassment. It is also important to speak to the lack of early reliable evidence for the modern Muslim view concerning Paul. Lastly I will demonstrate that the modern Islamic polemic against Paul is not consistent with many early Muslim traditions which affirm that Paul was in fact viewed as a true Apostle. I believe that Muslims are forced to reject Paul and blame him in trying to explain why their Quran affirms Christian Scriptures(1) and yet teaches that Christianity has false teachings. To the Muslim Paul corrupting Christianity serves as reconciliation to this problem. However, we will see that their rejection of Paul and their accusations are completely erroneous.

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I will reply more later, but this is a joke. My post had nothing to do with Muslim apologetics. I cite not a single Muslim. I cite tons and tons of Christians, both Literalist and non-Literalist. I quote directly from the Bible. And I cite noted secular authorities on the Bible.

Your mentioning of Islam is a transparent attempt to scare away Literalist Christians by poisoning the well. Shame on you for that.

And shame on you for not finishing the reading. For if you had you would see that I refute every single one of your bogus contentions with actual evidence (and there's much more to come).

You should really take the time to read it and attempt to refute my specific points rather than pulling some lame complaint about Muslim apologetics out of your...whatever. At least then people might learn something.

I will have much to say in the next chapter about supposed Apostolic Authority, but I already addressed it to some degree in my post above (had you bothered to read it rather than instead getting all worked up about non-existent Mulsim apologetics and attempting to refute that which you hadn't even read). Rather than cut and paste the relevant sections here, I invite the reader to simply start reading my post above starting with the subsection titled "Competing Claims of Authority" and continuing through the end. As it demonstrates, the Gnostics and other so-called "heretical" sects had at least equal claims of both Apostolic Authority and popular authority. But I will have MUCH more to say on this in the next chapter.

Also, these "heretical" teaching were NOT "rejected again and again and again." Rather, they were SUPRESSED again and again and again. How and why this happened will be explained two chapters from now in great detail.

Regardless, my next chapter is all about how the Bible came to be. And, after reading it, no sane person will continue to have much confidence that the Bible preserves the "original" Christian tradition.

Regarding Paul, you have him all wrong, as does your straw man Muslim apologist. I'll save my discussion of Paul for another day. I will just say for now that, when we get to Paul, things get truly fascinating.

Look man, if you have issues with some of my points above, then name them. If they are too many to name, then pick your two or three biggest ones. If you don't want to do the research to refute them yourself, then at least cut and paste from the guy who refuted the straw man Muslims. We can then hash things out on specific issues and make progress. Readers can then decide who offers the more compelling evidence. But simply providing a link to a guy who is arguing with Muslims about things I didn't even say and claiming "I refute you thus" is cheap and irrelevant.

I made it clear that I was not saying you had any Muslim motivations - just similar arguments. I then went on to give you specifics - criticizing your use of secondary documents to undermine the primary documents that prove the secondary documents wrong. The link I provided is a comparable work that lists the tons of 1st and 2nd century authors that wrestled with the issues you raised or vouched for Paul's authenticity - which is what you and Islamic apologists both try to attack.

Thus, a rebuttal on one attack on Paul's credibility is directly applicable to rebut any attack on Paul's credibility.

I do intend to rebut some of your points, but I don't have time in any 24 hour window to rebut so many points before the article goes stale under Steemit's wickedly short attention span.

So, I had to get the single most relevant piece of information I could find into the hopper while there were still viewers to see it.

Sorry. Your hard work deserves careful point by point examination. It's just not feasible when you dump that much stuff into the 24 hour hopper all at once.

You will note that I have already addressed one such point by quoting from the reference in your previous post. I'll continue to do that, but all I can do when you post that much material all at once is link to the best general rebuttal I know of.

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Also, these "heretical" teaching were NOT "rejected again and again and again." Rather, they were SUPRESSED again and again and again.

I would argue that they were not suppressed because we still have them and people have been arguing about these things for 2000 years.Sure, any particular group is free to decide which teachings are to be part of their creed and which teachings are to be rejected. But everyone has been free to form their own groups to hold their own views. And these groups are free to clash in the arena of ideas (and often on the battlefield). In every generation great minds and church leaders have dealt with these things. Now it is happening again here. :)

Over time most groups wander off from their original teachings. That's why it is so important to continuously go back and do a check against the earliest writings traceable to the apostles.

But when you start using doctrines long rejected by the very students who knew and trusted these apostles to impune their original authoritative writings, you open a pandora's box where any heresy imaginable can be reinserted into the bloodstream of history, leaving casual readers unsure of anything. As you have stated, this even allows you to introduce your own preferred views -- if you can just disable those original navigational beacons...

Nag Hammadi. Dead Sea Scrolls. These "libraries" contain numerous documents that were previously unknown to scholars, or known only by name (because they were mentioned in orthodox writings). There are a great many other documents mentioned in orthodox writings that are as yet still unaccounted for. So, "we still have them" only thanks to recent fortuitous discoveries. These documents were hidden away centuries because those who revered them were hounded, persecuted and SUPRESSED as heretics. You can't seriously debate me on this point, but if you do, just wait two more chapters where I will detail a two thousand year history of suppression.

Oh, I am well aware of what happened once the Roman church gained control clear through the Inquisitions and counter reformation.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are a wonderful treasure that counters the claim that Scriptures have been corrupted over the centuries.

But, each of the books found in those caves still has to undergo the challenge of traceability back to an apostle.

Finding a new non-traceable book and using it to refute the credibility of a traceable book is my main objection.

I would also be negligent not to point out where these arguments come from. They are a field of Islamic apologetics which seek to go back and dig up old Christian heresies that will help support the Muslim teachings that disagree with Christianity. (Not saying this is what motivates Sean, merely that these arguments are characteristic of Muslim apologetics - which is where you can go to find a rich set of rebuttals.)

You made it clear that I wasn't personally a Muslim apologist, but you very definitely tried to say that my arguments originate in Muslim apologies. This is simply not so (for I cite standard academic and faithful scholars alike but not a single Muslim one.). That Muslim scholars may occasionally cite the same sources doesn't means that these arguments "come from" Muslim apologists.

My apologies for not making that more clear. My intent was to show why I felt that the link I provided was a relevant response to your post even though it was originally written in response to similar arguments from Islamic apologists - given that response time was of the essence.

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