Dash vs BitcoinsteemCreated with Sketch.

in #bitcoin7 years ago (edited)

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Every system has it's own characteristic weakness, for example a religious society can easily turn into a theocracy ruled by priests, a "communist" society can easily turn into politburo dictatorship, and a capitalist society can easily turn into an aristocratic monarchy.

It's just the question of decentralization and awareness of the population that decides how the society will be shaped. So of course decentralization is the most important thing.

Now Bitcoin and Dash are 2 different and important cryptocurrencies, but they are also 2 different social experiments that we really need to focus on. And quite frankly this social experiment could very well prove one system over another.

It's obvious that "ideologies" should be tested in black boxes, before launching them onto society. Like communism for example, it's first launch was detrimental, the Bolsheviks were vicious thugs that really destroyed half of humanity.

However some still had hope that communism in a voluntary manner could actually work, so some of them have established the Kibbutz system, a total voluntary communist establishment, to test out communism without the atrocities.

And even given their best hopes the system had really failed, and they needed to do many free market reforms just to survive economically:

So now we know for a fact that Communism doesn't work, in any shape or form. But this experiment was worth it, and it was much better done in small scales, instead of viciously forcing it on people like the Bolsheviks did.

Bitcoin vs Dash

So the same way, Bitcoin and Dash is like a small scale experiment of a sociological system.

  • I would characterize Bitcoin as a semi-capitalist anarchist decentralized system

    • Since you have to have capital to run a node and to vote, so it's similar to the "only property owners can vote", but it's not like a corporation where you vote based on your % stake. And also miners and other institutions have leverage as well, so it's a complex 4 sector power system (developers, media , miner, exchange) that can influence the users, but basically it's still based on nodes and their vote.
  • I would characterize Dash like a democracy of nodes

    • Since every full node is 1 vote. Now this is essentially similar to Bitcoin, but it's more self-governing and more sovereign than Bitcoin. You still receive inputs from other entities, but it's the nodes that vote

So they are both similar in the sense that the nodes need to spend resources to exist, and nodes vote only, so it's a representative democracy, however everyone can setup a node, but the difference is that:

  • Dash does reward nodes from the reward pool, while Bitcoin doesn't.

So Bitcoin will inevitably centralized in nodes, as it only relies on altruism for people to host full nodes, whereas in Dash you get paid for it. So we shall see if altruism works or not (probably won't).

However Bitcoin has a much higher approval threshold, for Segwit it's 95%, whereas in Dash I think it's just 50%+1, as in other democracies.

Now the best thing is that voting is obvious and secure, so voting fraud doesn't happen, and they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I have my own theory what kind of system could work in theory, but now we can experience systems in practice, and test them out before rolling them down on society. Maybe both are wrong, or maybe both are right, we can't know, it still has to be tested further.

Now the thing is that these 2 systems can have 2 major potential drawbacks:

  • Bitcoin could turn into a technocracy
  • Dash could experience the tragedy of the commons

Bitcoin - Technocracy

Bitcoin could turn into a technocracy, as we already see the BTC developers asserting massive influence over the system. Bitcoin Core declares itself as the sole ruler of Bitcoin, and they want to steer Bitcoin wherever they see fit. So this is a technocracy, if people let it happen.

Dash - Tragedy of the Commons

Meanwhile Dash could have a "Tragedy of the Commons" scenario, especially if they have a 50% threshold for votes. I have several times called for a minimum 90% approval threshold in case of a democracy, 50% is too coercive, and half of the population dictating something to the other half is tyrannical.

So if some rogue Dash developer introduces a "Theft Bill" as in confiscating 49% of the Dash account's balance and redistributing it amongst the other 51%, the other 51% would easily vote on that. Of course 51% would like to rob the other 49% especially if they are poor.

So I think democracy requires minimum 90% approval before issuing laws, otherwise it will turn in to a Tragedy of the Commons scenario.


But as I said, we can't know which system is right, maybe neither, maybe a new cryptocurrency will come that will introduce a more robust societal system. But testing them all is the key. Let's test them all and see which one works best and is the most secure.

I am open minded at this point, and haven't made my mind up yet. I have my own theories how society should work, but based on these experiments, I could change my mind if I see proof. And so should most people be. Let's stop with dogmatic ideologies and let's look at testing them out first on small scale.


Sources:
https://www.dash.org/graphics , CC BY-SA 4.0


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Very interesting thoughts. I have BTC and DASH. I don't believe in ETH.
May the best coin win at the end!

May "all coins win" at the end.

Interesting. May I ask, why no ETH? Are you of some of the issues with DASH?

https://medium.com/@omiros23/evans-and-dash-s-scam-story-add1f16528ae

About ETH: Too much money supply. To complicate. In the end only strong limitation counts. But that's only my humble opinion.

ETH tries to be an AI system, or a platform for AI systems but I think it fails at that since you can't have security if there are no limits, and practically a Turing Language is exactly that. We see now with just basic software how easy it is to introduce a backdoor. And if there is a huge incentive like 1 billion $ worth of ETH, then all hackers will jump on that. So ETH is pretty vulnerable and unsustainable.

It might still be good as a short term speculation, but I would not put all my life savings in it.

ETH has absolutly nothing to do with AI.

you can't have security if there are no limits, and practically a Turing Language is exactly that.

This is simply false.

We see now with just basic software how easy it is to introduce a backdoor.

Formal verification will largely address this issue.

So ETH is pretty vulnerable and unsustainable.

What would t​hose vulnerabilities be?​

I think they are trying to introduce some kind of sandbox into the code to prohibit things like the DAO disaster happening again. A lot of memory exploits and such could arise in a fully turing language, and that might lead to practically turning ETH into a botnet. That is why I was saying that it might become an AI system, malicious or not.

I don't think software sandboxing is such a great idea on a financial platform. I don't think ETH will be a secure platform.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what sandboxing is. They are working with functional programming languages and formal verification to ensure that contracts will function as intended.

and that might lead to practically turning ETH into a botnet. That is why I was saying that it might become an AI system

This still does not make sense from a technical standpoint. The cryptography behind the computation does not allow for this "botnet" you mention.

I don't think software sandboxing is such a great idea on a financial platform.

Why not?

While I was working in market analytics at a firm, we used VMware for corporate simulations and market analytics, behind a secure linux distro. And this was just standard corporate protocol for simulations.

VMware is a pretty buggy simulator, they are constantly finding new bugs in it, even though it's like 10+ years old.

Then you have Xen which is basically an even lower level virtualizer, behind many Linux management and testing systems.

They are trying to work as hard as possible to eliminate bugs, but they always find new ones.

Most of the time because of the non-cooperation from hardware developers (the irony).


And then we have ETH which is basically built on all these stacks. One stack over the other, full of bugs, and you are going to tell me that a system that runs on multiple OS'es worldwide won't have a critical bug at some point that could crash the entire network?

I think that is very very likely. And if you attach a 1 billion $ bounty, you will have hackers crawling out from under every rock to make this happen.

Interesting perspective. Certainly a useful characteristic for a store of value like Bitcoin. ETH is specifically not a store of value, listen to the developers. Although the issuance is not "capped", the Casper contract will aim to eventually​ be almost deflationary. The prospects of the Ethereum network are much more than just Bitcoin's store of value.

It could be. If it were a safe system, then you could just as well use it as a store of value.

Just as Govt bonds were not intended to be a store of value, due to their security, people do use them as such.

Eth could easily outrank Bitcoin, however due to it's security flaws and complex design (which does introduce security flaws), it will probably won't.

I would argue that it is. However in the same way that gold, while it is a great store of value is not a specific to store of value. Gold has utility in the world. Just like ETH has extreme utility on the Ethereum network. Tokens on top of Ethereum are where the store of value and transactions are going to settle. ETH is the incentive instrument for the protocol layer.

ETH is by no means insecure as you make it out to be. There is 7 billion on the line, Bitcoin only has 22. Just saying complexity = insecurities is not accurate.

Interesting thoughts about Coin-Join, but maybe most people just want to hide their transactions from the community, and not necessarly from a state actor.

What do you think about the Bitcoin implementation of CoinJoin in Joinmarket, which is implemented in a trustless manner:
https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket

Does that offer significant anonymity in your opinion?

um yes and no. MimbleWimble and CoinJoin are certainly interesting improvements to the Bitcoin protocol. Strong words on Bitcoin. The DASH implementation is very sloppy with the masternodes.

For annon I would put my weight behind Monero. That is about it, still giving zk-SNARKs some time.

But the only issue with Coinjoin is the need for a tusted party to do the anonymization. I believe Joinmarket itself has fixed that, and it provides strong anonymity if used properly.

Exactly why I dont really care about those. I would rather use a protocol that is annon at the actual protocol layer.

Fair comparison mostly.

I would characterize Bitcoin as a semi-capitalist anarchist decentralized system
Since you have to have capital to run a node and to vote, so it's similar to the "only property owners can vote", but it's not like a corporation where you vote based on your % stake. And also miners and other institutions have leverage as well, so it's a complex 4 sector power system (developers, media , miner, exchange) that can influence the users, but basically it's still based on nodes and their vote.

I would characterize Dash like a democracy of nodes
Since every full node is 1 vote. Now this is essentially similar to Bitcoin, but it's more self-governing and more sovereign than Bitcoin. You still receive inputs from other entities, but it's the nodes that vote
So they are both similar in the sense that the nodes need to spend resources to exist, and nodes vote only, so it's a representative democracy, however everyone can setup a node, but the difference is that:
Dash does reward nodes from the reward pool, while Bitcoin doesn't.
So Bitcoin will inevitably centralized in nodes, as it only relies on altruism for people to host full nodes, whereas in Dash you get paid for it. So we shall see if altruism works or not (probably won't).

I would disagree with your characterization. You clearly understand the differences but those differences do not result in many of the outcomes you assert. You might see the node incentive as very important but I will argue that Bitcoin's nodes are incentivized and will not centralize. If you are worried about centralization, look into who owns most of the DASH nodes.

There are also a lot of issues with the masternode setup with respect to Sybil attacks. This is exasperated by DASH node centralization. The price of DASH is very easy to manipulate due to the high percentage of illiquid DASH held in the many masternodes run by a very small number of people.

You might see the node incentive as very important but I will argue that Bitcoin's nodes are incentivized and will not centralize

No they are not, the cost of running a node is increasing , necessarly by cost but by logistical pressure. Sure HDD space costs, as well as transistor computing costs have been sharply decreasing, and even energy costs can decrease with alternative power systems. But practically speaking it's not practical for everyone to setup the technical machinery, especially if that involves loud fans and a lot of electrical engineering and cooling systems in a residential area.

So running a bitcoin node will most likely become a dedicated service, which will become an oligarchy. Now there is nothing wrong with that, Ancient Rome was an oligarchy initially, and it functioned very well, taxes were minuscule and the economy was booming.

Whereas Dash deliberately diverts resources in order to subsidize, at least economically, all nodes, in order to maintain the democracy. So people can rent out a cheap space and run a node, knowing that they will get paid for that, so technically anyone can do that.

There are also a lot of issues with the masternode setup with respect to Sybil attacks. This is exasperated by DASH node centralization.

I am not familiar with that.

The price of DASH is very easy to manipulate due to the high percentage of illiquid DASH held in the many masternodes run by a very small number of people.

I disagree, currently Bitcoin miners are no better than this, they have most of the money, not to mention the BTC exchanges, that act as custodians for many many people. At least DASH tries to push back against the centralization by having a self paid development team, that serves DASH, and not special interests.

And my argument is always that economic inequality is not a threat if political inequality is contained. In Bitcoin you can have an elite that can just buy off a lot of the community to serve his will.

At least DASH can somewhat defend against this if the voters are subsidized, to keep the decentralization.

Just because the type of user who will run a node in the future may not be the same as those who run full nodes today does not mean that will cause centralization. Satoshi makes this point very clear. It will always be possible for the small user to verify the blockchain for themselves - it just might much more economical to use a SPV wallet or light client. You still verify all the hashes.

The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale. That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server. The design supports letting users just be users. The more burden it is to run a node, the fewer nodes there will be. Those few nodes will be big server farms. The rest will be client nodes that only do transactions and don't generate.
-Satoshi Nakamoto - Bitcoin's creator


Whereas Dash deliberately diverts resources in order to subsidize, at least economically, all nodes, in order to maintain the democracy. So people can rent out a cheap space and run a node, knowing that they will get paid for that, so technically anyone can do that.

There are also a lot of issues with the masternode setup with respect to Sybil attacks. This is exasperated by DASH node centralization.

I am not familiar with that.

Most of these "benefits" you mention with regard to these incentivized master nodes are actually part of the problem. Just because you see Dash advertise all these 4.4k masternodes, don't think there is 4.4k diferent people each voicing their opinions behind those. This is the Sybil attack vector against Dash. In conjunction with the rocky start of Dash, this amounts to an extremely large problem.

Bitcoin has none of these issues.

As if in Bitcoin all nodes were real. Just a few months ago you basically had somebody set up 500 Amazon hosting BTC nodes, that were shut down a few weeks later since the free trial expired.

But at least DASH does subsidize people to run free nodes, so people could run them if they wanted to, and they have the financial support to do so.

Sybil is an attack vector against any crypto not just Dash, and I think Bitcoin will be the first target, because miners are already doing nefarious activities, like the backdoor meetings in Hong Kong or whatever.

I would not trust them the least, and they have the resources to mount a Sybil attack.

Sybil is an attack vector against any crypto not just Dash, and I think Bitcoin will be the first target, because miners are already doing nefarious activities, like the backdoor meetings in Hong Kong or whatever.

I would not trust them the least, and they have the resources to mount a Sybil attack.

Yeah sure it is, but your missing the point completely with dash. A Sybil attacker in Bitcoin does not have much power at all - they still would need hashrate to do anything.

With dash, there is the economic fee of locking 1k dash for becoming a node representing quasi-stake. This fee is so trivial, especially to actors who were able to acquire a large amount of these tokens for "free". The low expenditure of value required coupled with the power of masternodes is absolutely ripe for masternode collusion and centralization​.

The whole idea is one size does not fit all. Give people a choice. If some people don't like Bitcoin then they have the right not to use it. No system is truly perfect.

Dash is also dashing like Bitcoin is rocking.

If anyone's interested in seeing how Dash governance actually works, check out https://dashcentral.org And, for informative & newby friendly videos, check out Dash : Digital Cash

you left a few sloppy fucking Vs there.. like come on. get better.

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