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RE: Our playing fields aren't level but can be more level with universal basic income

in #basicincome8 years ago (edited)

"It sounds like you agree with me"

Maybe!

"but still would prefer UBI"

I certainly do, as it is the fair thing to do, if we consider the Land (=economic opportunity).

"because it gives you money you can choose where to spend."

(edit:) Not just that, also because it is the fair thing to do, because we all can command and form the Land for our own devices. Coming first to tell everyone what to do if they want to use the Land is not something I approve of as sole rationale to command Land.

"As a builder of houses, would it be easier/cheaper for me to build you a tiny house over a couple of weekends"

"or pay $400 to you every month so that you could rent a room for the rest of your life?"

Whether you pay rent for the rest of your life more or less depends on who owns the Land that the house is on, who owns the tools and IP used to build the house, and what you and the other person come to agree on. You cannot put a fixed price on what someone else's contribution costs you, and it's not just other people's labor that affect price.

The cost of the labor of someone else might be very little, or a lot. The fees on tools and the land that you pay towards parties that you owe nothing, or towards the community, might be little, or a lot.

So I cannot conclusively answer that. But if you have a stake in the Land, it might come out cheaper to live more Land efficiently and use your stake in the Land in other ways you enjoy more. So it makes sense to e.g. live in ways that use little Land (vertical building), or in less popular cities (Detroit), if there's a nationwide UBI (and ideally a land value tax(LVT)) in place. Depending on whether or not you care about the location specific advantages of living in NY or not, you might get more value out of your stake in the Land by living vertically in Detroit and spending the money online one way or another, or to develop the local community there. Or you might get more value out of spending more money on greater Land rent towards private owners and/or the community, if you appreciate NY for a reason or another.

If there's no nationwide LVT, you might actually see more cost efficient living wherever the cities chose to have an LVT in place, so you save money you can spend in other ways, while supporting a city that knows how to control rent effectively.

"As the person who needs a place to live, do you prefer the tiny house or the room that you rent? Does either provide better shelter?"

It's all subjective, we can just bring to the individual the facts of what it costs, what the opportunity costs to live in this or that location are, using this or that method, and give choice, so the individual can chose which cost factors that accompany opportunity, are worth it.

"The ability to say, "take this job and shove it" is the same as your ability to feed, cloth and house yourself for the near future. Whether it is UBI, or to have those things directly provided is pretty much irrelevant."

Not at all actually. We live in a world where industry leaders increasingly command the Network Effect. If you want to gainfully participate, like most of us do at a time or another, you will have to make yourself dependent on those who command rather more of the network effect than less, or you will have to spend rather more on advertisement than less, if you want to bring real competition from outside. The figures in earlier linked podcast make a rather clear case for something along those lines going on, probably. This kind of increasing Land, economic opportunity concentration, that is solely based on coming first to the market, that's something to address with policy. The tax and dividend approach is easiest to deploy and effective.

"So, what reasons do you have that you prefer UBI over the basic needs?"

1 ) It is increasingly needed advertisement budget if real competition is desired. It's a stake in the Land. Alternatively, make google/facebook give people free advertisment budgets or what? But that just strengthens their monopoly position. I'd rather want to see other platforms and private people be able to tap into this budget, too, if the individual sees an opportunity in alternative advertisment avenues.

2 ) It allows people to observe the costs in different locations and methods for themselves, rather than being just given, remaining ignorant of the actual costs.

3 ) And from 2 ), then allows people to use their person specific valuation, valuations that objectively vary from person to person, of those location and method specific differences, to chose sometimes cheaper but less opportune, or more expensive but more opportune.

Note that in the production of oneself, of fellow people, of community, and of joy, there's an extreme amount of factors to consider that are very person specific.

4 ) From the realization that by nature, we can come to use the Land economically in production of ourselves, each other, community and joy, it seems sensible to have a nonforfeitable claim towards the land, for also that purpose. So that is a thing the paid out sum provides, considering it can be fully converted into Land access, if we chose to tax the Land to go along with that.

The UBI as a right to command Land isn't just about being free to not starve. It's also about being free to gainfully participate as one sees fit, and to enjoy, to whatever extent a modest stake in the Land enables.

edit: fleshed out the LVT part a bit. Some spellchecking/grammar.

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There is not Land Value in a location that is simply used to store your body.
LVT simply becomes another rent that everyone pays.

And you missed something VERY HUGE!

Where does the UBI come from? It comes from the people working. UBI in every single form comes from the people who are making things.

So, if we decide that everyone should have minimum shelter, than it should be provided as overall cost minimized as possible.

Lets say it costs a builder $10,000 to build a tiny home.

Lets say that rent for a tiny place is $400 per month.
That's $4,800 per year.
That's $48,000 per decade.
That's $288,000 per average person's life.

So, if you had to pay this amount out of your pocket, would you prefer to pay $10,000 or $288,000?

And remember this, it is govern-cement that is not allowing people like me to make tiny homes for homeless people.

"Where does the UBI come from? It comes from the people working."

Not at all. The Land is characterized specifically by being NOT Labor.

The universal income comes specifically from the Land, fees on its exclusive use that benefit some lucky and sometimes also commited individuals.

Some estimate land value to be responsible for 60% of the GDP of the US, so there's definitely something to work with.

And I'd say that we owe it to each other to better distribute it, for the benefit of everyone.

"There is not Land Value in a location that is simply used to store your body."

Depends on where it is stored... The Land Value of physical land is simply the price you'd have to pay to purchase an empty plot of Land in e.g. New York, it varies greatly by location, and it is not created by the work of the owner, but rather by demand for the Land.

Free advertisement and added value from the network effect, as well as cost savings due to Economies of Scale are both the Land, and they both deliver unearned returns to whoever happens to own undertakings that customers already know about or use, for a reason or another.

It's time to take the Land seriously. It doesn't just run away, it cannot hide under a rock, it's simply in plain sight, it can be found nearby what your average person wants/needs to use or enjoys. It really is a very simple concept. If you have plenty customers, you enjoy the Land and let it work for you for additional advantages that you did not create, that work against everyone else who'd seek to use the Land you use directly, or who seek to sell their labor the way you do. If your work isn't very popular, you might not be using a lot of Land in the economic sense, by the way.

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"And remember this, it is govern-cement that is not allowing people like me to make tiny homes for homeless people."

Government regulation needs to be democratically legitimated. It often isn't, today, to your endeavour's disadvantage. The universal income is one proposal to restore some level of political sovereignty of the individual, to more enable people to form associations and organize around political demands or community organization beyond that. If you've heard of charles murray, he wrote a book focusing on that aspect of the universal income, I recently came across a summary of it here

The review of the book In Our Hands is awful.
It is all, obviously this author didn't think this, which is obvious, of course... etc.

UBI doesn't restore any political sovereignty.
I do not see how you make any connections between the two.
Either you have some weird fairy-tale like view of what happens in politics, or you think that if more people had more money, they could spend it on campaigns. Neither work.

The problem with govern-cement is that they want a permanent poor and permanent homeless class.

UBI implemented through such a govern-cement would result in controlled manipulation of everyone. Post anything bad about the govern-cement on F-c-book, have your UBI cancelled. (or just delayed, lowered, routing error...)

Anyway, my main point is that providing the house is much much much cheaper than paying someone to rent the house. And since we would be taking from the efficient, driven people to do this, we should make the costs as minimal as possible.

$288,000 vs $10,000

Further, if the cities would allow such tiny homes for homeless, I could get the whole thing donated. Donated construction worker time. Donated materials from the actual lumber mills.

$288,000 vs $1,000

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Probably worthwhile to watch Murray talk for himself about the topic.
While he seemingly has no awareness or appreciation for the topic of Land, he makes some good points outside of that at least!

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