RE: Universal Basic Income is Communism 2.0
I don't know from which country you are. We in Germany could easily afford a UBI. It's not a matter of finances and also it is not a matter of people not working. People without having anything to do or to work get depressed and uninterested in their lives. Most people with uninteresting work already give half what they've got into their jobs. At all times humans were seeking for meaning through their activities.
Exceptions prove the rule.
It's all reckoned and it's all possible. To have a UBI is just a matter of will. If people don't want it, we won't get it. That's all.
All the arguments against it or towards it are mostly ideology based.
You should ask yourself what you would do yourself if you would get a UBI? That is the most important question.
As modern man is not supported by his clan or family, there are substitutes needed. The one and only insurance against poverty, sickness, and age is nowadays "money". Therefore it's logical from my point of view that money seems a solution. If you are interested in that topic there are a lot of good discussions and youtube videos out there. A very competent figure is Guy Standing, a British guy.
Switzerland had a referendum two years ago for UBI and they voted with 23% for it. Which is an incredibly high number for the first vote.
I would beg to differ that UBI is socialism or communism. It is what you see in it resp. what you prefer to call it or what anxieties one connects with it.
Indeed it's a very interesting mental experiment worth walking through.
In that you are right, but a UBI would not completely end the activities of people, they would simply do things by valuing money a little less. (Hypothetically, because the UBI would not work)
Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, and any other country in the world can afford to implement a UBI, the problem is that it will not work, as I said, wealth has to do with the goods and services available, not in the monetary accumulation that have a country, of course Germany has a lot of money, besides having a very strong industry, however, the UBI would fail anyway. Even supposing that the resources were unlimited, the UBI would fail, since, as you say, it is not a question of finances, but rather an economic approach.
Thank you very much @erh.germany !
Thanks for discussing with me.
Regarding your theory, Germany already would have a failing system. Just take away the "guaranteed" term out of UBI and you've got what we are running right now. Social money for those who cannot make a living.
Over 700 billion spent on social transfers alone, not counting the running costs for infrastructure and staff of social institutions. We maintain a huge complex of state institutions, all of which are responsible for people in social need. These are, among other things, the services you are talking about. In fact, I agree with you that with the abolition of the state as a carer, a large part of the institutions would no longer be necessary, people would be left to their own devices to find work and ways to earn a living. You must not forget that a UBI would only be a subsistence minimum. In order to continue to indulge in luxury goods and material pleasures, everyone would still have to have a well-paid job or become an entrepreneur, as they do now.
From the view of many UBI opponents, it is feared that nobody would want to do the slave jobs anymore, which nowadays ensure that the supermarket shelves remain full and that stupid work is done. Since I myself do a much more demanding job and cannot imagine clearing shelves or doing a cleaning job, it is difficult to imagine that other people do this work voluntarily. But that doesn't mean that I'm right or that my predictions will come true.
There would not be more money in circulation than today. All money today is used for consumption and the services you speak of. Demand for products and services is currently extremely high and is maintained because this is our only remaining measure of prosperity. However, in my view, consumer pressure and demand are also an expression of compensation and habit. A possible positive consequence of the basic income, for example, could be an opposite effect. Namely, that of lower or more environment-friendly consumption or production. When the psychological effect that my survival is not linked to my work income occurs, there are tendencies that I want to start my own business through this form of freedom.
What I mean to say is that we already have a basic income here in Germany. Everyone knows that he will receive these social benefits if he applies for them and does not have a job. We have over 120 different transfer services, many of which do not even depend on whether you work or not. Those who want to work do this and those who do not, do not work.
Ultimately, the internal decision whether pro or contra UBI is neither an economic nor a financial one. It's a question of the image of man. Neither you nor I can make any reliable statements or forecasts as to what effect the introduction of a UBI would have. We have preferences and wishes as well as fears and reservations. We form theses or theories based on this image.
I am dealing with UBI for more than ten years now. What it did to me was a slowly but surely taking shift towards my life concept. I myself pretend as if we already got a UBI. I am having my own business as a freelancer and I decided to be a very bad consumer. For me, it actually became unnecessary that my government decides on a UBI. It was and is a personal journey for me to have gained a concept of life which worships money but also people. They will be my insurance once I get sick and old. Money will do its thing but people will do the rest. If I wouldn't take care of my people I would have to earn three or for times more than I do currently.
My reply got really long. I hope you don't mind.
Where do you actually live? Are you interested in more details and pilot-projects of UBI?
Well, you can not compare a partial subsidy with a collective subsidy, the results are different, each economic action is different from each other and has different results.
Currently there is no such thing with the UBI that works positively in any place in the world, I could bet with my eyes closed. I am willing to listen to examples of this, as long as I am allowed my right to repicla, because it is possible that if there is currently something like a functional UBI, it is more likely that it is not a UBI really, but rather it is about a very strange mutation.
If I throw a rock into the air, can we assume that it will fall to the ground? I bet yes, right? why? because the laws of physics tell us that gravity will attract him down. Exactly the same thing I am doing when I say what would happen to the UBI, I am simply applying the natural laws.
Do not worry, I like to listen to people's opinions, for that reason I write publications.
Yes, I would be interested in hearing about these UBI projects, but I think it is necessary to make clear that a pilot test applied in a city is not the same as an economic practice applied to an entire economy.
I am from Venezuela. Regards!
Here we have a kind of UBI called "Bonds", it is a kind of UBI that has practically no effect.
Thank you very much @erh.germany !
You are welcome.
As it seems that you made up your mind I am not sure whether a deeper confrontation with that topic towards a more open result and unpredictability would make sense. I would have some work to look up the websites and what I would recommend reading I hope you understand that I only would do that if you signal a more urgent interest.
I guess that a couple of hundred years ago nobody in my country would have believed that a social welfare and security system for an entire population would be thinkable or even doable. People would have said to an idea like that that it's insane or not sustainable. This system was created by will.
For my part, I do not care so much about wrong or right predictions. I mostly care about my outlook on life and how I wish to lead it. I can imagine a UBI as much as I can imagine a world without money. The system matters when I have to enter the interfaces between it and me and have to watch my ethics and my ground.
Regards to Venezuela. That's far away.
Oh, I have not made a decision, I just do not see how the inflation problem can be solved, if you could give me an answer explaining how to implement a UBI without generating inflation, then my position towards the UBI would change, but not I have been able to find that answer on the internet. Thanks!
By the way, I believe that a couple of hundred years ago, it was precisely the Germans who proposed to create a plan for security and social assistance, during the Bismarck government.
In the comment above i explained how a basic income could be financed without inflation. I would be glad to hear your thoughts to that!
Thanks buddy!
I already answered it. The problem that I pose does not lie in the financing of the UBI, but in the available goods and services.
Regards!
currently there are tons of goods and services available, but less and less people can afford them, so only demand for luxurious good increase, because there is tons of money.
I don't see currently a problem that we have too less goods, i see a problem of who has access to the goods.
Currently if there is no money to make, the goods will not be distributed there, even if the goods them self have no extra cost other then shipping, because they are already produced in advance. With increased automation this will be true even more in the future.
UBI is only sustainable through unlimited resources. The reason it would still fail is psycho-social. Basically the wheel of civilization would stop turning. From early civilizations to middle ages, there wasn't much of a change. Bitcoin that revolutionized the world as we knew it is now merely a relic akin to dial-up internet. This progress would come to a halt.
People would still work under UBI. But since working doesn't matter, at least 99.99% of the people will end up doing work that doesn't matter (except for personal satisfaction).
Switzerland is one of the most free countries according to http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking and they will survive considering they have a history of capital friendly policies.. As for Sweden (Unless some drastic changes happen), 1 Generation and they'll be a part of the 3rd world. Germany would take 2 More Generations.
Not necessarily, I propose a hypothesis in which a society that implements the UBI could not coordinate the productive factors to exploit those "infinite resources", because the implementation of the UBI would bring about the total distortion of the economy. It would be like placing a communist software in a capitalist hardware.
Infinity is actually a much more abstract number. Think about the natural numbers (1,2,3.....) There is an infinite amount of them. Think about the square numbers (1,4,9,16....) there is also and infinite amount of them.
Infinity + Infinity = Infinity
Infinity - Infinity = Infinity
As long as the inefficiency isn't absolute (100%) UBI is sustainable through Infinite resources. But these are just theoretical stuff. You are not going to have infinite resources in your lifetime. So UBI is unsustainable. Period.
The UBI would be sustainable if that system could have the capacity to produce what is demanded, what happens is that I do not believe that a productive socialist / communist system can achieve production levels to exploit those resources and create the wealth demanded by the consumers, in such a way that the problem of inflation would continue to exist.
I do not see it possible for UBI to work, for me, there is no easy road, we have to work and create wealth, only abundance will allow prices to fall for consumers.
We went into the pure mathematic realm discussing about non-finite resources. Infinity is a tricky case. Can a person win 500 lottery jackpots in a row? If this person is given infinite chances, the answer is YES.
The capacity to produce what is demanded in a commie system is still not an absolute zero. Given enough time a person could figure out all the private-public keys in BTC using a 5 year old smartphone.
UBI is unsustainable in a realistic scenario. Period. But it can work under unrealistic fictional conditions.