UPDATE: The Great Steemit Debate: Tone Vays vs @blakemiles84
UPDATE: Wow.. thanks for the tremendous support behind this debate. I promised @MadBitcoins to share in whatever bounty may come. He will be a happy camper.
And it appears I failed miserably on one of my statements (that has been pointed out a few times) on powering down. According to the bottom of page nine on the white paper:
SP can only be converted back to STEEM over 2 years via 104 equal weekly payments. ‘1 SP’ can be viewed as a share in a pool of STEEM. Likewise, every time SP is converted back to STEEM it is done at the current ratio. Individuals are guaranteed to have more STEEM in the future than they have when they first convert from STEEM to SP. -Steemit White Paper, pg.9
This makes more sense to me now as your SP and vestment amount doesn't change during the powering down process, only a flag on your account that power down is in process and a calculation of currentSP / 104 = powerDownPayOut. Any other input on the topic would be greatly appreciated, but I think I have a good handle on it now.
Again, countless thanks all! I count myself fortunate to have issued this challenge at the right time.
A ponzi is where people take THEIR OWN MONEY and give it to other people. Steemit allows you to participate in allocating the minting of a cryptocurrency in a weighted vote style. Semi-democratic or democratic whatever you want to call Steemit it is not a ponzi, calling Steemit a ponzi in 2016 will be like calling Bitcoin magic internet money in 2009
IMO, many people that calling Steemit a ponzi scheme doesn't know, what a ponzi scheme actually is. In a ponzi scheme there must be a constant in-flow of new money to pay the interest of the "investors". In contrast Steemit is creating a new commodity called Steem. Its like a mine, where something new is taken out of the earth. It's not clear what value this new commodity has, but there is no need of a constant in-flow, because Steemit is creating this new commodity itself.
I think cryptocurrencies in general, and Bitcoin in particular, are still a bit tainted in the eyes of the general public due to such things as Mt. Gox and Silk Road. I tried to explain my Ethereum investments to my wife, and she replied with "you mean it's like that Bitcoin stuff that people use to buy drugs with?" People naturally mistrust that which they don't understand, and Steemit is complex enough with not one, but 3 different crypto-tokens, that you really need to read and re-read the whitepaper before it all starts to sink in. As a new user I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the implications. So I can understand how some people may ignorantly dismiss it as a Ponzi scheme without bothering to invest time in learning more about it. We the Steem community need to educate and teach people about this great new technology, and try to clear up misconceptions whenever possible.
I agree with you Matrixdweller, BUT you have to also point out that you have a CHOICE to invest your OWN money into Steemit, and you have a CHOICE to Power Up your Steem or Steem Dollars. So, because you don't HAVE to and it's a CHOICE it's not a ponzi in my opinion. And it you DON'T power up, the Steemit Community can still thrive on its own. That's also why it's not a ponzi.
I am not claiming Steem is a ponzi, but ponzi thrive on giving users a choice, making them seem they don't even want their money. Ponzi victims have the choice to participate, it is called different types of fraud/theft when no choice is involved.
This guy confirmed Steemit can't be ponzi. Recognize him?
The scandalous Chuck P.
Maybe someone should invite Tone Vase on here for a live debate about Steem?
Yes Id like to see that @Merlinscat. Although...Tone seems to stuck on the "Where's the value comes from debate". He is seeing big payouts and is having trouble accepting them. As I see it the value is in the community pooling all their knowledge together frictionlessly. And its just a small liquidity pool of steem vs users right now.
An example of value Ive seen: Due to @pauls post and personal reply to my question on Ethereum splitting I was able to claim my ETC. I wouldn't have found it as easy on other platforms like reddit, Steemit I find is much easier to read and a better community I can trust (because its monetized).
Exactly. I'm a long time redditer, but have always found it frustrating trying to separate out the useful, informative posts from all the mindless trash. Sometimes I feel like I'm wading through a sewer, stepping gingerly to find treasure buried in the muck. As soon as I found out about Steemit, I thought "wow, this is going to be amazing", and I signed up as quick as I could. Monetizing a social media platform and having a system that rewards users for quality content is sheer genius, a way to actually incentivize people to think before they write. I've only been on Steemit a couple days, but already finding the quality of discussions and posting to be of higher standards than Reddit. And that right there gives it added value over Reddit in my eyes.
Yep..couldn't agree more Cryptomancer. Im finding HUGE value. Cheers
Are STEEM Power (VEST) disbursements partly funded by people buying STEEM Power?
If so, then the term ponzi can be applied.
As I understand it, SP is highly inflational currence, so Vest rewards are funded by emission. I've read Whtepaper not very closely though.
Of course people on the platform are going to say it's not a ponzi because they are invested in some way. There need to be critics and people who analyze it to point out its flaws so that it may become stronger or be exposed depending on which applies. That is why these discussions are so important.
Looks like @matrixdweller wins the comment prize for the month :)
It looks like so. But it's just 1st day off August. Anything can happen. :)
edit. Thanks for the debate. It was really helpful. :)
Steemit is a great opotunity for peaple who need help or donations etc, to make it came tru.
I am so agree with you. It is not PONZI and it is a great way to let peaple conect to each other, and discus wath you mean etc.
The main thing steemit is geting in future is, a new way to think and use crypto. Couse this way to whrite and earn is fantastic.
Term Ponzi used as follows: payouts to existing stakeholders coming from money collected from new participants. Reason for this word was: where is added value?
One could say the same thing about bitcoin. Or gold. Doesn't make either of them a ponzi though.
No, they are values by default. I just tried to show the meaning of "ponzi" as it was in the video. Simple answer is: content is added value in our case, then it's not a ponzi
i think that other value added to steemit is that you don´t need to be a early adopter to get big reward, this is something that we can´t say about bitcoin,ethereum, or any other good altcoin. i see steemit much more democratic, is the upvote of real people who make you become a value member of this comunity, not just rooms full of mining hardware.
good post, @blakemiles84
upvote done
Steemit definately IS NOT a ponzi however there was a whole reddit thread on Bitcoin being magic internet money.
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicinternetmoney/
That is the reason i would not call steemit a ponzi.
You dont have to deposit anything to start here, you can actually do like me- just make yourself an account and start posting.
No money involved right?
And i think yes, Steemit may exists without steemit power , but we need something different then.
I dont like STEEMITPOWER idea,so i think that something new would made a job.
Just because a free option exists does not absolve something from being a ponzi. You could be the bait.
I don't understand what is the point... let's give a bit of trust... we have been "fucked up" from hashocean... I think all of us... for the first time... there is something NICE... everyone is attacking??? Cmon man... lets give them a chance!!! Maybe in a future we will tell you... you were absolutely right.... but till that moment let's trust them! ok???
Best regards
@webdeals
Amazing debate... @blakemiles84
I agree to everything you said
https://steemit.com/steemit/@apocaloptimisto/dantheman-ned-please-remove-my-content-from-this-site
Here's a STEEM Rocket I made :D
Tone Vays , If You Call The Steem Ponzi Scheme, !!
I Want To Know How You Call The FOREX Or The Stock Market ,
............Leveraged fraudulent master of the puppets Scheme?..........
[[[[[[[[[[[[Steem is the future of social media , Get Onboard ]]]]]]]]]]]]]
p.s. @ToneVays read my post , make a steemit account and upvote me ..lol
Marijuana ,Cannabidiol ,medicinal properties beneficial for health.. CBD Cannabis Strains..
https://steemit.com/marijuana/@johnsarris/marijuana-cannabidiol-medicinal-properties-beneficial-for-health-cbd-cannabis-strains
I think Tone's argument was lost when he starts making character attacks against Blake, usually a good sign that he's grasping at straws for points against the resolution
A tip of the beret to you, good sir.
Verdade
Alex Sterk and I responded to Tone's continued attempts to mis-understand and bash steem, to no avail.
In an earlier WCN video, he claimed creating your own currency was ILLEGAL.
I asked him why he thought so, never responded. Others chimed in saying 'of course its not illegal'... no Tone..
I brought it up again this morning, his reply was 'do it and see what happens' ... I posted links to CNN, Atlantic, and Quora, saying its very common and popular all over the place. Icatha Hours, Mountain Hours, the Brixton Pound, others in France Germany and Japan...
He thinks govts prevent people from making their own local money.
Maybe being a former investment banker causes a cloud of nonsense to follow your conscious mind around as you live your daily life...
Tone pretends to be well read and knowledgeable, truth is, he has a few lawyer friends, probably has a few in his family.
Nuff said?
All you need to know about Tone Vays summed up in one quote ...
"I don't think there's that many smart people in crypto."
Tone: "I don't think it is a blockchain".
@rainman An Olympian needs your help. Please view my latest post. It is to help my friend Cyrus who is going to his second Olympics! He needs our help! I upvoted you. This is my most important post and the money isn't going to me. Please consider upvoting it. https://steemit.com/steemit/@brianphobos/an-olympian-needs-our-help-steemit-please-read-this-if-you-have-ever-been-passionate-about-something
Tone needs to do his research first, before publicly embarrassing himself.
Why? His points on the ponzi were valid and not refuted...
He is clearly interested on SteemIt but has doubts about going thru.
Good work blake, I think you obviously won the debate.
That is not the case .. Blake's 'evidence' against this being a ponzi was anecdotal. Sure some are making a shit tonne of money and cashing it out .. ok, so it's all good right? WRONG!
Tone is obviously not an experienced user, but he did very well pointing out what is obvious to all ...that it is very easy to get money in, but not to get it out .. and those who are getting it out, seem to be the one's who benefited the most. For some reason we are supposed to believe this is a good thing? Perhaps it is not a class ponzi, perhaps the developers hope it will all work out, according to the sales pitch, but the result is the same .. people are to invest in hopes of the same high returns as the lucky few are receiving .. and as soon as you realize that is not happening, it is too late.
I think the issue is Tone doesn't think people's time/effort has value. Then the system appears to be only money goes out but no value added into the system.
Money goes in easily and goes out easily as well with liquid steem token. Powering up is a choice for investors not a requirement to use the system. "Trick" or give user incentive to power up is not equal to force them to be vested. I think this is very different from ponzi.
In the second half of the hangout, Tone started to imply Steem is not even a true blockchain based, only a small group of smart people has the right to determine. That looks pretty desperate to me.
Anyway, it's good to hear different voice.
PS, you might want to an article wrote by @dan in response of an CoinDesk article https://steemit.com/steem/@dan/response-to-coindesk-article-steem-provokes-doubt-of-market-observers
Ding Ding Ding! Winner!
I didnt invest and i cashed out enough fo pay my debts and buy a car cash. So how does that work out? All I invested was time and skills
It's easy to put money into an annuity, and hard to get it out. Are all annuities Ponzi schemes? Are all term deposits Ponzi schemes?
It depends where the money to make the payouts comes from.
A healthy debate.
Tone Vays should join Steemit then he can have a more informed insight into how the system works. Someone should tell him it's free to join and he doesn't need to spend any BTC/ USD.... if STEEM/ Steemit is a ponzi, it's the worse ponzi in the world!
He may even get rewarded for his scepticism (however misguided).
The only people that can potentially lose out are those that buy STEEM, speculating on its future value (or just to have more influence on the platform). It's high risk and high reward for people that go down this route. However this is the same for every cryptocurrency being traded on Exchanges. If STEEM is a ponzi because of this then all cryptos are ponzis!
The difference with STEEM/ Steemit is it has a real life use case (people find value reading/ consuming the content of others every day) and people do not need money or technical knowledge to join the eco-system. It's revolutionary in it's simplicity in that regard.
cross-post
yep, its ironic.
he says its all fake, its nonsense, blah....etc.
he could get involved, generate one helluva lot a content, get paid...
but he won't..
He's afraid it'll all come down in some major SEC raid and incarceration of masses of steemit.com users, or some such nonsense.
Steemit is not ponzi
Dafuq?!
Wow. Going against Tone Vays, a Bitcoin heavyweight! I listened to the first 15 minutes or so and you did a great job! Will catch up with the rest later. I met Tone at a meetup in San Mateo, CA the end of last year and got in a short discussion on Proof-of-Stake and Ethereum (I was arguing in favor of POS).. He's got very strong opinions and I like the way he thinks even if I disagree. I really like some of his trading concepts. I'm going to give him a hard time because he essentially said Ethereum wasn't going anywhere and that's when it was trading around $1 .... I'm going to give him a hard time about that.. =P
Ok watched the rest. Great job being cool, calm and collected Blake! Very solid responses all the way through! Tone is fiercely opinionated so he's extremely tough to debate. He seemed to be set on claiming Steemit to be a ponzi scheme, but you calmly addressed his arguments. Steem is freely traded in markets and has a price based on supply/demand. People aren't forced to do anything. We can't assume people are ignorant. An easy way to address where the value comes is just to say new Steem is rewarded to people just like miners are rewarded new Bitcoin. Blogging is the new mining is a good slogan to use. When someone talks about a premine, there was no premine but early adopters and the creators had a considerable advantage. Next time just ask how much Bitcoin does Satoshi have from early mining and that will at least minimize complaints about 'fairness'... Overall you did a great job. You'll attract open minded people. You probably won't win over Bitcoin maximalists anyways... and Tone's strong opinions will just cater to their desire to affirm their own biases no matter how illogical his arguments are. That's the nature of most debates anyways.