It's not a good idea, bro. Sorry. It just means spammers, plagiarizing, copy/paster and revenge flaggers have more ammo to penalize others for negative curation (which is kind of an oxymoron because it is good for the platform IMHO).
Watching the rest of your vid now but that stuck out like a sore thumb. Please, consider how it would be abused. It just means any abuser has free power to retaliate.
Yeap. already has been considered but giving power to abusers is a no go. Since protecting the Reward pool is actually healthy for all Investors in Steem ( Including the abusers xD ).
So the free downvotes what something that just came on my radar a few days ago via Kevin wongs post linked in this thread by Kevin. I haven't had a ton of time to attacked the idea from all angles, however it did make some sense to me and I would like to have some nice debate about it.
So from my perspective, it is much easier to counter flags then it is to counter people abusing the reward pool via self upovte one-word post, etc.
I think it is much easier to counter flags (I counter couple dozen flags a day with ease for people). What is not possible for me to stop is to flag every piece of shit thrown on the trending page. However, if everyone could use a daily downvote for people who abuse the reward pool, it would help. I believe the reward pool is being abused every day to a much greater extent than people who abuse downvotes. Protecting the reward pool also includes downvotes, because right now name one whale that fights trending page abuse. Because I can name several whales that fight flag abuse every day. I am not saying my idea is right or wrong, but I definitely going to speak up about it and make someone convince me I am wrong.
And really the flag abuse is from a hand full of people. I can't name 10 people off the top of my head that I know abuse flags on a regular basis. I can point to ten articles made today that are spam and abusing the reward pool. Food for thought.
I believe the efficacy of free downvotes for the platform really hinges on whether we believe the majority of the platform will use them righteously. Of that, I am doubtful due to the rampant flag abuse and frequent revenge flags we deal with daily.
The underlying assumption is that the majority of users on the platform care about the big picture rather than their own wallet and I am not convinced of this. If most user will use flags for good, it could work out. If not, it would be disastrous.
Lastly, the probability that abuse fighters will be the priority targets for abuser revenge flags could be an effective deterrent to engaging in that activity. Good chance it will cause something of a bystander effect.
This will encourage people to stay in their bubbles because of the negative affect towards ROI if they dared to do otherwise.
The thing is its not possible for me to flag all the abuse, id run out of SP before getting through 5% of it. I cant even bring down one spam post on trending, my downvote isnt powerful enough to take down something upvotted by bots. But if everyone chipped in with 1 free daily downvote for example, the burden wouldnt fall on any one person.
BTW I do this shit all the time, I take the underdog side of a debate just to make sure the answer is full proof. I am in no way religious with my ideas and would love to have my awareness expanded by someone enlightening me.
And if people actually started downvoting spam that gets upvotted by bots maybe people would think twice before abusing the reward pool on crap posts. Something that just isnt possible to combat with the current system, bots broke the downvote game because I bought 1 mil SP and I am usesless vs trending spam, which should never happen, if a whale cant even step up to help then what are we doing?
Our scope includes bid bot abuse. AFAIK, we are the ONLY abuse fighting project on Steem that will engage bid bot abuse specifically.
We generally try to target the most grevious cases to avoid unnecessary drama but sometimes the drama is unavoidable. It's often a thankless job but it feels good to at least put a dent in the rewards of the pretentious shitposters.
To counter trending bid bot abuse you'd need 5mil+ SP fully dedicated to downvoting abuse. When a post gets 400$ in bot upvotes and it is spam not much any person can do is my point. I commend you on your efforts because right now it is a losing battle.
Yes, I agree to completely counter bid bot abuse would take an extraordinary amount of SP. That would be a war of attrition and indeed is a losing battle.
The more strategic target is to attack the ROI. Believe that approach requires much less stake to be effective, both financially and psychologically.
We don't even need to hit them all but rather make an example of a few every so often. When the rest realize they could also be hit and lose funds for boosting trash content, they may think twice otherwise they could be the unlucky winner of the flag lottery. 🚩
It's even better when we are able coordinate blacklist + unvote w/out refund from bot owners but that is kind of rare. We'll keep at it. 😉
If you ever see a blatant bid bot abuse, feel free to give us a shout at @steemflagrewards.
But if everyone chipped in with 1 free daily downvote for example, the burden wouldnt fall on any one person.
It's a hurdle people need to overcome. It's worth the experiment to have free downvotes. I'm all for ways that will allow people to freely upvote and downvote.
Until that happens, this place will forever be inferior to the mainstream social media.
On the other hand, I'm also hesitant because many will not flag for whatever strange reason beyond the economical.
Meh, if the chain is gonna burn, it's gonna burn. I say we go for it.
When was the last time someone randomly flagged you, everyday for a long time? I mean it just doesnt happen and bullies can be dealt with by whales who are not bullies. One has a path of defense, right? I can defend flags from other whales, NP. I can't defend vs trending spam. Like I said, I love to have a debate about someone who is passionate agaisnt this topic and see what we can come up with. I do know that the current status quo has to go.
And I would think a 20$ downvote from a mega whale is not shit compared to a shit post that steals 400$ from the reward pool that not one person on the platform can defend agaisnt.
Consider I work with @anthonyadavisii, I can say the flags come sporadically and not random.
I'm open to changes, but we must have some coordination before opening this floodgate so we have all the support we need to do a street sweeper.
I also would like to see those guys consistently getting to the top of trending after @blocktrades' worker proposal starts siphoning their bought rewards.
Downvotes that cost voting power have already reaped serial cases of abuse . How much more if these come free and in the hands of abusers? Opinion flags and revenge flags are difficult to tell unless there was a predisposing event to analyzed on. But for random flaggers that just like to flag, what value does that have to add for the community?
I agree with that. Flag misuse (revenge flags, random user harassment) got to an absurd level. While free flags will benefit anti-abuse projects, the risk of them affecting regular users unchecked is too high.
Some pretty decent variety in topics, the one that caught my attention was about the flags. I am not certain giving away ammo is a good thing? Though I’m all about using my power to support!
I part-took in this post and it was quite awesome to hear you talk about #steem and @steemengine.
Here are my few excerpts and lessons from the discuss:
On the 4th to 5th minute, @theycallmedan took to emphasizing that "proof of work" and "proof of stake" are the character of #stem blockchain - 4th -5th minute. To me, this is a good reason for every investor to come to #steem. With POW and POS, a good ROI is always expected as the value of investment is not left to chance but to human engagement.
Between time 5:30 to7:00, Dan was asked what communities does he really go for and why. In his response, Dan said his interest in a community is what they have to offer. This to me shows #steem as a crypto platform built on merit and credibility. Uniquely, Dan consented to that he loves games and the fun here.
Between the 8th to 10th minute, Dan mentioned Telegram as his preferred information source because he can meet and discuss with some researchers. I see why he had to invite Steemians to join the Steemit Telegram channel.
So far, my peak moment on the podcast was the 10th to14th minute where @Theycallmedan mentioned #Steem and #EOS as his typical crypto projects with high premium on #steem. This gives me the hope that with the likes of Dan on #steem, Steem's growth is sure.
From the 30th minute, SMT vs @steemengine were the topical issues.
"free downvotes"
It's not a good idea, bro. Sorry. It just means spammers, plagiarizing, copy/paster and revenge flaggers have more ammo to penalize others for negative curation (which is kind of an oxymoron because it is good for the platform IMHO).
Watching the rest of your vid now but that stuck out like a sore thumb. Please, consider how it would be abused. It just means any abuser has free power to retaliate.
@steemflagrewards peeps. Please, share your thoughts.
Yeap. already has been considered but giving power to abusers is a no go. Since protecting the Reward pool is actually healthy for all Investors in Steem ( Including the abusers xD ).
So the free downvotes what something that just came on my radar a few days ago via Kevin wongs post linked in this thread by Kevin. I haven't had a ton of time to attacked the idea from all angles, however it did make some sense to me and I would like to have some nice debate about it.
So from my perspective, it is much easier to counter flags then it is to counter people abusing the reward pool via self upovte one-word post, etc.
I think it is much easier to counter flags (I counter couple dozen flags a day with ease for people). What is not possible for me to stop is to flag every piece of shit thrown on the trending page. However, if everyone could use a daily downvote for people who abuse the reward pool, it would help. I believe the reward pool is being abused every day to a much greater extent than people who abuse downvotes. Protecting the reward pool also includes downvotes, because right now name one whale that fights trending page abuse. Because I can name several whales that fight flag abuse every day. I am not saying my idea is right or wrong, but I definitely going to speak up about it and make someone convince me I am wrong.
And really the flag abuse is from a hand full of people. I can't name 10 people off the top of my head that I know abuse flags on a regular basis. I can point to ten articles made today that are spam and abusing the reward pool. Food for thought.
Appreciate the reply @theycallmedan.
I believe the efficacy of free downvotes for the platform really hinges on whether we believe the majority of the platform will use them righteously. Of that, I am doubtful due to the rampant flag abuse and frequent revenge flags we deal with daily.
The underlying assumption is that the majority of users on the platform care about the big picture rather than their own wallet and I am not convinced of this. If most user will use flags for good, it could work out. If not, it would be disastrous.
Lastly, the probability that abuse fighters will be the priority targets for abuser revenge flags could be an effective deterrent to engaging in that activity. Good chance it will cause something of a bystander effect.
This will encourage people to stay in their bubbles because of the negative affect towards ROI if they dared to do otherwise.
Posted using Partiko Android
It's difficult to say. If whales such like you would be willing to flag away bs daily, then it could be helpful.
If not, it's only giving abusers ways to be more powerful. Suppressing those who oppose them while still rewarding themselves.
The thing is its not possible for me to flag all the abuse, id run out of SP before getting through 5% of it. I cant even bring down one spam post on trending, my downvote isnt powerful enough to take down something upvotted by bots. But if everyone chipped in with 1 free daily downvote for example, the burden wouldnt fall on any one person.
And if people actually started downvoting spam that gets upvotted by bots maybe people would think twice before abusing the reward pool on crap posts. Something that just isnt possible to combat with the current system, bots broke the downvote game because I bought 1 mil SP and I am usesless vs trending spam, which should never happen, if a whale cant even step up to help then what are we doing?
@thecallmedan, we do that all the time, brother.
Our scope includes bid bot abuse. AFAIK, we are the ONLY abuse fighting project on Steem that will engage bid bot abuse specifically.
We generally try to target the most grevious cases to avoid unnecessary drama but sometimes the drama is unavoidable. It's often a thankless job but it feels good to at least put a dent in the rewards of the pretentious shitposters.
Posted using Partiko Android
To counter trending bid bot abuse you'd need 5mil+ SP fully dedicated to downvoting abuse. When a post gets 400$ in bot upvotes and it is spam not much any person can do is my point. I commend you on your efforts because right now it is a losing battle.
Yes, I agree to completely counter bid bot abuse would take an extraordinary amount of SP. That would be a war of attrition and indeed is a losing battle.
The more strategic target is to attack the ROI. Believe that approach requires much less stake to be effective, both financially and psychologically.
We don't even need to hit them all but rather make an example of a few every so often. When the rest realize they could also be hit and lose funds for boosting trash content, they may think twice otherwise they could be the unlucky winner of the flag lottery. 🚩
It's even better when we are able coordinate blacklist + unvote w/out refund from bot owners but that is kind of rare. We'll keep at it. 😉
If you ever see a blatant bid bot abuse, feel free to give us a shout at @steemflagrewards.
Posted using Partiko Android
It's a hurdle people need to overcome. It's worth the experiment to have free downvotes. I'm all for ways that will allow people to freely upvote and downvote.
Until that happens, this place will forever be inferior to the mainstream social media.
On the other hand, I'm also hesitant because many will not flag for whatever strange reason beyond the economical.
Meh, if the chain is gonna burn, it's gonna burn. I say we go for it.
When was the last time someone randomly flagged you, everyday for a long time? I mean it just doesnt happen and bullies can be dealt with by whales who are not bullies. One has a path of defense, right? I can defend flags from other whales, NP. I can't defend vs trending spam. Like I said, I love to have a debate about someone who is passionate agaisnt this topic and see what we can come up with. I do know that the current status quo has to go.
And I would think a 20$ downvote from a mega whale is not shit compared to a shit post that steals 400$ from the reward pool that not one person on the platform can defend agaisnt.
Consider I work with @anthonyadavisii, I can say the flags come sporadically and not random.
I'm open to changes, but we must have some coordination before opening this floodgate so we have all the support we need to do a street sweeper.
I also would like to see those guys consistently getting to the top of trending after @blocktrades' worker proposal starts siphoning their bought rewards.
Of course, that is why we debate and bring these things up so we can talk about solutions. Just turning a blind eye is not going to work.
Downvotes that cost voting power have already reaped serial cases of abuse . How much more if these come free and in the hands of abusers? Opinion flags and revenge flags are difficult to tell unless there was a predisposing event to analyzed on. But for random flaggers that just like to flag, what value does that have to add for the community?
I agree with that. Flag misuse (revenge flags, random user harassment) got to an absurd level. While free flags will benefit anti-abuse projects, the risk of them affecting regular users unchecked is too high.
Response (around the last part of traf’s comment) - https://steemit.com/steem/@kevinwong/understanding-steem-s-economic-flaw-its-effects-on-the-network-and-how-to-fix-it#@trafalgar/re-kevinwong-understanding-steem-s-economic-flaw-its-effects-on-the-network-and-how-to-fix-it-20181015t070342698z
Sorry, busy’s UI made me accidentally flagged the comment at 100% earlier lol. cc @busy.org (upvote/downvote buttons too close for touchscreen).
Some pretty decent variety in topics, the one that caught my attention was about the flags. I am not certain giving away ammo is a good thing? Though I’m all about using my power to support!
Cool show! You came up with some interesting and thought-provoking points as always. And thanks for answering my question Dan, I appeciate it :)
Yep, you have to wait for a plant to grow. Price will follow, it should not precede. It is not useful when price explodes when it is too premature.
I part-took in this post and it was quite awesome to hear you talk about #steem and @steemengine.
Here are my few excerpts and lessons from the discuss:
On the 4th to 5th minute, @theycallmedan took to emphasizing that "proof of work" and "proof of stake" are the character of #stem blockchain - 4th -5th minute. To me, this is a good reason for every investor to come to #steem. With POW and POS, a good ROI is always expected as the value of investment is not left to chance but to human engagement.
Between time 5:30 to7:00, Dan was asked what communities does he really go for and why. In his response, Dan said his interest in a community is what they have to offer. This to me shows #steem as a crypto platform built on merit and credibility. Uniquely, Dan consented to that he loves games and the fun here.
Between the 8th to 10th minute, Dan mentioned Telegram as his preferred information source because he can meet and discuss with some researchers. I see why he had to invite Steemians to join the Steemit Telegram channel.
So far, my peak moment on the podcast was the 10th to14th minute where @Theycallmedan mentioned #Steem and #EOS as his typical crypto projects with high premium on #steem. This gives me the hope that with the likes of Dan on #steem, Steem's growth is sure.
From the 30th minute, SMT vs @steemengine were the topical issues.
Thanks @Theycallmedan for investing in #steem
I've also createda post to share my lessons on the podcast to my community and friends:
https://steemit.com/dsound/@uyobong/dsound-podcast-bchainbastards-vs-theycallmedan
Oh thanks; señor @uyobong
It helps me a lot.
For my inability to understand the original language of the video.
You're doing amazing work Dan to empower steem community by your knowledge and support. Thanks
Posted using Partiko Android
thank you sir you have do a very good job
many enterprenur learning from yours
so tnx
!sneeze sorry sir
Posted using Partiko Android
You have been infected by the King of Disease!
Will you quarantine yourself?
Or will you spread the plague?
This series of q&a is really amazing. From my view it's one of the best ways to stay in touch with the community