Let's Have a Discussion on: Self Voting and Flagging

in #flagging7 years ago (edited)

HF19 did what many predicted it would: brought with it an increase in self voting.

It's become common for users to frequently spam rather empty comments at posts, every two minutes even, and self voting them, even to a dollar or two. It adds up to quite the rewards after a while.

Now, on one hand I'm of the opinion that you are allowed to use your stake however you see fit, and on the other hand this kind of spamming adds no value to the platform and I think it's worth frowning upon.

Recently, I flagged a user - no reason to name names, he can join in on the conversation if he wants - who has been a prominent spammer and self voter, and politely warned him that I will be flagging his spam if he keeps it up.

As expected, this was taken very personally, accompanied with a slight rage fit about how he's never done anything to me. He later deleted his comments.

This made me think about the psychology of flagging on Steemit, and made me realize that with the recent increase in new users, this is as good a time as any to have a community discussion about the subject.

Ideally, the flag, or rather the downvote, would not be anything personal; simply a distribution tool, exactly like the upvote. Some posts we feel deserve more rewards, while others deserve less.

Payouts on Steemit are subject to community approval, and the final payout is the result of a consensus.

On Steemit, users get really attached to their potential payouts, and we feel that they have deserved them, due to getting upvotes. But at the same time, the downvote is no different than an upvote, and since users can use their stake to allocate resources to a post, they should be allowed to allocate resources out of a post.

It's the same thing, just in reverse.

The definite downside of flagging is increased drama. People simply do not react well to being flagged. It leads to rant posts, flag wars, whining, all the stuff we've seen on Steemit since the beginning. And those of us that have been here longer have seen quite a lot of this stuff.

But I don't think we should avoid using what is a fundamental part of the platform in the fear of drama - and on top of that, I don't think we should tolerate the drama, period.

The whole psychology revolving the issue needs to change.

A good first step would be to make a GUI change where the flag is finally changed to a downvote. But that alone won't fix the issue.

I said at the beginning that if you have the stake, you're allowed to use it. And if you choose to use it to self upvote your spam comments, fine. But the rest of the community has stake, too, and it's their equal right to flag what they view as worthless spam on the blockchain. No reason to take it personally.

But what say you?

I'd like a community conversation about this right now. New users are increasing, and I, for one, would not like to see any more spam on the platform than there already is, and there's quite a lot of it, unfortunately.

Let's have a conversation in the comments!

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There's this GitHub pull request that is on hold. https://github.com/steemit/condenser/pull/1270#pullrequestreview-34666550

I hope they haven't forgotten about it, and are working on a long term solution.

I'd love to downvote, but I don't want any drama.

As for the self-upvote, I think it's a great way to drive demand for SP. It's how in the future advertisers can bring in revenue to the platform. However, mass upvoting your own comments is abusive and difficult to police. Maybe there should a rate-limiter for self-upvotes?

PS: And yes, the lower voting power target is not working.

I don't know the specific person / situation you mention but if they were posting a bunch of pointless comments just to upvote them, then I agree it's spammy and is generally bad behavior. I don't see self upvoting necessarily spam when it's not joined with an activity that makes it spammy like many pointless articles (I've seen it recently combined with @randowhale votes) or comments as you mention.

There is just as much potential abuse for downvotes (flagging) as there is for upvotes. I personally think flagging needs an overhaul to reduce the possibility (and reality) of abuse.

What kind of an overhaul would you suggest? Anything in particular you have in mind?

I'm thinking about posting an article on this topic but here's my general thoughts.

If someone has earned upvotes through their own community and not illegitimately then they should not be at the mercy of somebody else (and possibly their followers) taking away those votes/earned value.

Imagine a scenario where a community has formed on Steemit around a topic, let's say abortion. Authors that have valid opinions and have gained notoriety and value for their published thoughts should not be worried about the other side ganging up on them and devaluing their work. It is censorship plain and simple (if an article gets enough downvotes it's devalued AND hidden).

My idea would be something like.

  • Person A flags an article
  • Anybody who follows Person A will now see a flag next to the upvote button if they read that article. You can click the flag to see Person A's name as a flagger.
  • If you don't follow Person A, no flag is displayed.

This gives the opportunity for the community to flag an article without affecting the visibility or the value of the article. It does affect the decision for others to upvote (or not) the article because they see a flag from another member they trust.

So the flag can affect other members' decision to not upvote an article, but it cannot take away the value and votes an article has already earned.

Also, downvotes are not only censoring the author but they are censoring others who have upvoted that author. If your downvote cancels out my upvote then you have effectively silenced my voice.

I appreciate your comments. Would you say someone else voting against your vote in an election silenced your voice? Or is that just negation?

It's a bit of a different question, since votes are not equal on Steemit, although in reality, neither is political power.

Not entirely sure where I stand on this issue myself.

I understand where you are coming from with the question, but it's apples to oranges. In an election, the end result is a community choosing a leader to represent them. We're not doing that here. We're not voting on articles so that they become the sole words that are to represent the entire Steemit community thoughts and values.

With my vote, I am choosing to use my own scarce resource (a portion of my voting power) to assign a valuable asset (currency) to an author I think is deserving of it. If you downvote that same article you have taken away value from the author and voting power from those who have voted. In my opinion, it should not be possible to take away something that has been earned and given legitimately. That's what downvoting does.

It's true. If we continued the election analogy, the loser of an election doesn't end with 0 votes. They just end up with less, and in fact the margin of victory is considered relevant for determining vague things like a "mandate" for larger changes. With flagging at the current time, you don't just outvote the opponent, but subtract. The results are similar, but not the same.

Sounds like a good start, 100% upvote :D

Followed as well...

I just kinda got chewed out yesterday by a couple big guys yesterday for flagging someone's spam and calling them out. Was told "we don't that type of negativity"

I can't say as I see the evidence of self voting so much as I definitely notice the ridiculous payouts that circle jerking have risen to. Even mid-level circle jerking.

Right now there are several posts in Hot that are nothing more than 4 or 5 selfies that are at almost $100 in under an hour. This may not seem like much to anyone who has been here for a while but after having spent 5 fucking hours actually researching and writing a post today (that avoided an @cheetah upvote) that's at less than $6.00 after 4 hours, it pisses me off.

And the upvotes are from the same people, who, I've also noticed very rarely upvote comments to their posts that don't come from people in the "You Upvote Me & I'll Upvote You" club.

The problem with renaming flags as simply downvotes is that I assume my downvote would subtract a whopping 0.13 from someone's shitty circle-jerked post the same as my upvote would add 0.13.

I'm not wasting my precious votes on any of these people any more. I've wondered how to trim my feed and now I have a good place to start, I'm dropping every one of the people who:

a. appear to be engaging in this kind of exclusive vote 4 vote bullshit

and/or

b. who don't upvote comments on their own posts (unless the comments come from YV4M&IV4Y club members).

It'll take a little work to figure out who they are but I think my shitty little 0.13 vote is worth the trouble.

Still thinking about starting the @poolprotector to amass SP and prevent people from earning money from spam

I'm ok if someone upvotes themselves in the comments if there are alot of comments and they want it to be noticed. However it has to be a genuine comment.

People that post a generic spammy 'good' post comment and then upvote themselves are clearly spamming comments for the rewards and should be downvoted, in my opinion.

Especially those that link spam AND upvot themselves.

If fact I might need to go and hit a couple now.

#follow4follow
#vote4vote
LOL

vote4vote!!!! I upvoted this comments pl do the same. super good comment. genuine. i like it. thanmks

As a community we need a way to stop people posting links to articles, copied work, or non-original videos for Steem. If you go to the new section for most tags there's so much bullshit(I really try to search new often), however, I don't believe someone upvoting themselves constitutes spam. It's a self promotion tool, like minnowsupport or having friends resteem you. Before we debate this though let's focus on getting rid of article linkers, plagiarism and people just posted random videos.

The only thing on Steemit that should promote you is quality content, thats it plain and simple. Using tricks like self voting is like allowing lobbying in politics. Steemit must be organic , free market and a meritocracy or it will not work long term.

Is self voting a trick if I like my own content? I wouldn't post something if I didn't like it.

Objective systems like blockchain are designed to remove human weakness from decision making, you know like ego? Have you read the post where the guy showed he can double his holdings in 180 days from $83k to $166k by only self voting. Lets be serious here how can you defend that? Saying you wouldn't post something you don't like yourself is stating the obvious, not really a counter point, in a free market you can like your own product as much as you want if other people don't then you crash and burn simple.

To get such a high doubling you'd need funds saved or to invest a large sum. Both of which we want. If you're doubling only a few dollars, who cares?

Every system out there allows the self vote and I see nothing wrong with it. It's been allowed by the devs and with two accounts or a friend one could do the same thing. All disallowing it does is help people willing to end rules. Also with a stable user base/price you won't see such doubling as Steem on the market will grow decreasing the price per Steem.

This is a good example of the split in opinion on this platform. Because Steemit is both a creative platform and a good investment it has two clear sets of users. Ones who put alot of effort into content and creativity and ones who put alot of capital in, both who feel they deserve reward. It will be interesting to see how it pans out, personally I think its a problem that can't be resolved. The platform has already changed enormously in the past couple of months with the price of Steem rocketing, as the price of Steem has risen so the quality of content has decreased.

This is very true. There is a lack of quality compared to similar paying content on other platforms. I think part of the problem is you need content creators who are also interested in cryptocurrency. On YouTube or Instagram my posts are worth very little, but the same post here earns me $20 - $100. I'm overpaid but compared to others here I might even be underpaid. This is a problem any platform has though. Initially the early adopters become powerful no matter how deserving.

Edit: Do you think a reinvest in myself button could solve things?

Explain how that what would work, reinvest in myself, sounds interesting?

I have to agree with you - my feed is filling up with video reposts from non-authors! They don't present it as original work, but I'm tired of having to un-follow potentially promising but stumbling new content creators due to feed overload. Incidentally, I wish I could filter resteems to a different tab, but C'est La Vie.

I had two rant posts written about me after I flagged someone's plagiarism, which only happened after the user said they were going to continue to spam plagiarized content. I feel like I need a "Plagiarism Police" badge now.

In the end, we were able to convince the guy to stop copying and pasting, and he's been producing original content ever since. But the drama was real for a minute lol

I totally agree, down vote is necessary , criticism and sometimes negative feedback is a very integral part of keeping something true to its ideals. Someone posted a video of a "hot chick getting her arsehole tattooed" I mean really? If Steemit doesn't do its bit to raise human consciousness and instead joins facebook in lowering it then its not providing anything in anyway alternative!

Ah, well, at least it will be uncensored in the blockchain....?
Ahem.

I do agree with all your points, which are very valid. On the other hand, I do believe that downvotes should be exercised with more caution by some people among us, who recklessly destroy the reputation of others, sometimes even due to a small noobish mistake, that could have easily been fixed with a simple warning. Upvoted and resteemed!

☂ ⓐⓒⓘⓓ ⓖⓞⓓ ⓒⓐⓣ™

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