[Steem] The Reward Pool and the Parable of the Token

in #steemit7 years ago

@paulag wrote a response to someone a couple of days ago about the impact of unused steem power on the rewards pool which I thought fit in interestingly with the stuff that I was doing last week on analyzing the relative power of SP at the top of the most powerful accounts on the blockchain. In it she admits to being wrong in her response to the original commenter which inspired her work. It was very humbling and honorable.

Unfortunately, she was right the first time and her interrogator was utterly in the wrong. Not because of having worked out wrong numbers or the like, though I do have some slight quibbles with the numbers involved, but because understanding the underlying mechanism of how the rewards pool is divided and works at all is not only a rare thing but actively obscured in a lot of ways.

@sneakyninja has claimed that "this explanation is the single most important thing I have read on Steemit in a while," which I can only reply to by suggesting that if I'm the best thing you're reading on the platform, the platform has a lot bigger problems that whether or not people understand the basic mechanisms. I am a long way from the best content on Steemit.

But I do have a certain set of skills. I set of skills that make me a nightmare for people who seem to have some sort of authoritarian need to tell other people what they can do with their own property. Also I don't take myself too seriously.

So in the interests of living up to an implicit dare, I'll repost the comment in its entirety that I left for Paula. If someone else finds an extended parable that simplifies understanding and reasoning about how rewards work on the blockchain, so much the better.

If someone can do a better job of explaining it – I would think you immensely, because I'm certain I've missed more than a few of the nuances and had to gloss over many others in the course of trying to put together something comprehensible on short notice.


In fact, I'm pretty sure that your analysis of how the reward will is allocated is wrong.

Remember, votes in and of themselves don't have value. I know that comes as a surprise considering how prominently they're displayed, but that value is a derived figure and can change as the rest of the rewards pool is shifted around by votes.

The system is really dodgy at explaining how this actually works, but I think I can illustrate it with a parable.

Let's imagine that I have a rewards pool and it is $100. I then create 100 voting tokens and sell them to people for a dollar each. Each of those people can handle their token once to whomever they want to vote for. Or they can sell their token to someone else for the same purpose. Or they can choose to do nothing and hold onto their token.

At the end of the night, we would like to give out the rewards pool. It has $100 in it. In theory, we are about to get 100 tokens back.

Except that's not what happens. Some of those tokens just get sat on. Some of them got lost. Some people are hoarding them. For whatever reason, we only get 50 back from the guys in the room.

That doesn't mean that the rewards pool is going down to $50. It just means that it gets cut into 50 shares and handed out. Each token becomes worth $2, effectively. For this round.

Tomorrow, we do the same thing. I refresh my reward pool $200, and I give out 100 tokens. The day goes on, people give their tokens out – but some people have tokens left over from the previous day. They have accumulated stake.

Tonight, we give out money from the reward pool again – and instead of getting 100 tokens back we get 125. That makes each token we got back worth $0.80. Someone could get exactly the same number of tokens that they got the night before and get a vastly different payout, because the number of votes has changed.

The value of a vote is not fixed. It varies entirely based on the number of votes which are in the votes cast to be reified into a value from the pool.

Now let's consider the case in which I don't put any limits on my currency and I offer to sell as many tokens for US$20 each as anyone will give me.

They have now staked significantly into my token blockchain.

I, of course, have cleverly retained 1 million tokens for my own pleasure, to sell, give away, or whatnot. I can do with them as I please, because I own them. Everyone else can do with them as they please, because they own them.

The voting pool, however, remains at $100 – both for simplicity for the illustration and because it's a set figure. It doesn't matter how much actual activity goes on in trading tokens, that's what we've decided the rewards pool will be. Does it make sense for other people to drop hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy my tokens so they can vote on the allocation of $100? Probably not. But you know someone will do it.

(This is why the value of steem/SBD is variable, but I'm speaking to the audience.)

The next night, we go to giveaway the whopping $100 reward pool – and we get 10,000 tokens back. Some people gave their tokens to other people and they are handing them in. Some people just gave their tokens from their own pockets to us (self-voting). Some people used tokens that other people had given them for performing a service during the day or making a product. Some people just use the tokens that were bought during that day during my ICO.

I, of course, still have my shit ton of tokens that I've been sitting on from the beginning, and not spending them. Though I've decided to give some tokens out during the day to people that I think will give them to other people and do things that I like.

The moment of allocation comes!

Each token is now worth $0.01. A fat one penny. That's a considerable drop in value per vote, especially since I just sold a whole pile of votes. Still, whoever has a token gets one penny, for however many they want to hand in.

It just so happens that out of the pool that was originally extant, about 200 tokens, all I can get from them is that original 200 tokens. That is the most influence they can have. The 10,000 tokens that I sold, some of which may have gone to the same people, represent roughly 50 times the voting power, in aggregate, as the folks who have been involved in the last two days.

But then there is the mass of tokens that I gave out of my own pocket. I'm still sitting on a huge trove, but I'm not using it to vote by and large. I've parceled out another 1000 tokens and gave them to people in the last cycle whom I thought would do good things with them.

Some of those people were assholes. They did nothing but vote for themselves. Some of those people were very active and aggressive about giving their tokens to people whom they like and, theoretically, who are doing things I like. Some of those people were doing things themselves that I like, and spent those tokens voting for themselves.

But that's another 1000 tokens in circulation, which makes the sum total of tokens 200+10,000+1000 or 11,200, and that makes the actual value of a singular token $0.00892857142.

However, just because I have dipped into my trove and thrown out five times the number of tokens into the population doesn't mean that I've screwed over those who had the fewest. I may have given my tokens to the people who had the fewest. The people I gave my tokens to may have given their tokens, in turn, to people who had the fewest.

Hell, the people who bought into my token economy may have given their tokens to the ones who had the fewest. We just don't know. That may be why they wanted to give us money in the first place.

Now for the conceptual leap…

Forget that we are talking about $100 in the pool. Instead we are talking about 100%. It doesn't actually matter how much money is in the pool for the purposes of determining how much impact unmoving SP which suddenly turned into moving SP would have. It's utterly arbitrary.

That pool will be static no matter what.

In a real sense, the more SP in motion in the system, the smaller the influence of any individual portion of SP will have on how the rewards pool is allocated. That's absolutely true. The more people playing in the pool, the less water there is to splash in any given direction.

However, from that truth does not follow that the more SP in motion, the harder the situation becomes for those who have less of it. Everything hinges on where that SP goes and what it does. And not only what it does, but to what end it does so.

If you delegate 10,000 SP to me and I use it to self vote my work, both of us may be extremely happy. You got that SP in the first place however you got it and you decided to become a patron. You provided me the ability to make money off of your SP, giving me the opportunity to create my work. I do so. We are both happy.

Now, there are a bunch of whiny people who look at that exchange and say, "well, you could have given it to me, or them, or any 10,000 people, and it would be better." That's where @freebornangle comes in. They don't like what you've chosen to do with your resources. They don't like what I've chosen to do with your resources. And they feel that they have a greater moral claim to decide what you do with your resources than either of us, the holder (the stakeholder, most specifically) or the recipient.

Nothing keeps them from getting as much SP via whatever means and using it to whatever ends they desire – they just don't want to have to do the work for the first part of that.

If I took that 10,000 SP delegation and instead gave out ten thousand 1 SP delegations to people who then used that one SP delegation to self vote – I would have affected the reward pool in exactly the same way as if I gave it all to myself. Each vote would be exactly as valuable in relation to the percentage of the reward pool that it entitled me to redirect.

It's just that @freebornangle figures they could get a bite of the pie if I'm giving it away with no regards for my own interests, only theirs.

The rewards pool cannot be drained. That is impossible. It is a set value which will be distributed on a regular basis. That's why we have 9.5% inflation on the steem blockchain (or whatever it is). Those tokens injected into the system on a regular basis at a steady pace are literally the inflationary rate. They are inflation. All voting rewards represent inflation.

All the tokens entitle you to is a share of the pie. One slice.

So you were wrong about being wrong.

I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

The only important question is where is that SP being motivated to. More activity on the blockchain deliberately and directly translates into smaller slices, as the number of tokens/SP increases and the size of the reward pool remains static.

This isn't hard to understand, it's just really poorly explained by the white paper, the blue paper, and every single time someone talks about the "value of votes." It's dynamic. It changes. If you want to see what it looks like in a much shorter term, more exposed environment – look at some of the voting bots. They are a mini laboratory for observing how token purchase and voting pools actually work. At a certain point, if all you care about is the value of your specific investment/vote, you have to work aggressively against other people entering the pool. It gets split more finely. If that split is less than your investment to get in, you lose money.

The steem blockchain is a very strange creature, in that you don't have to invest anything extrinsic to become vested in the architecture. You can lay claim to a portion of the inflationary rate and stick it in your pocket. The portion of that inflationary rate is limited only by, interestingly enough, the amount of that token that you already own. You can redirect as much as you like in proportion to the amount that you own.

Yes, that means that more delegation from sitting SP into active accounts might lead to a different distribution of rewards from the inflationary rate. It is not, however, immediately a given that small stakeholders would suffer the most. Small stakeholders already have claimed to a pretty small-ish slice of the pie. Percentagewise, it's hard to slice it finer.

To get back to your analysis, if @steem were to vote for itself 10 times a day, with full available power (which is actually a descending sequence of 100%, 98%, 96%, etc.), it could potentially redistribute up to 15% of the rewards pool in a different way. By your numbers, which I'm not sure I'm wholly on board with because they are more interested in specific vote values than vote influence percentages.

And this only applies to a single cycle. What you're doing is sort of looking at the Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma at the first frame and thinking that defines the entirety of the environment.

In truth, there would be subsequent votes, now influenced by the amount of SP that people had acquired from the previous round. This is going to change the dynamic of distribution across the pool a lot more radically than the initial token dump. It certainly may be considerably better for small stakeholders, depending on what the people who now have greater stake want to do and are interested in.

So, from a mechanical point of view, none of this really holds up as a valid analysis.

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Damn! This is a mouthful of information but really interesting. Please please stay here in Steem and keep making more of this. I found a very intelligent comment from you for an entirely different article and here I am reading your article and fascinated by how much you know how steem works. I've been here for quite sometime now but never really got to understand the inner workings and may never really will. Hats off to you sir. This was a great read.

At this point, I don't think anyone else will have me – so you guys on Steemit have the advantage of them. If untrammeled access to my wondering, berating tongue is considered "the advantage." Another way to approach it would be "cursed with."

Even what I have spoken about in this article is just a loose approximation of how Steemit works and how the steem blockchain functions as the backbone of that communication. There are, of course, infinitely more indignities, sufferings, and pain to come out of all this probably. If I do things right. We shall see what we shall see.

I appreciate your appreciation. I'm just putting up pieces of information scattered across the face of the net and enough knowledge of the way that the networks run behind the curtain, gluing them together, and putting them out for people to see. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes it's not.

This time, it appears to be something fairly critical.

Hopefully I will continue to feel compelled to tell the sorts of things and show the sorts of mechanisms I don't expect suppliers thereof to fall off anytime soon.

Thanks for cross-posting, so I could upvote and have my trail hit it too. I hope it trends.

In my defense, I said it's the most important, not the most interesting. I agree there is a lot of interesting content (and I do a daily curation journal, so I see a lot of it)!

I work really hard at being of as little importance as I can arrange.

Dammit, I've failed again!

Very good example, well broken down! This is how I thought it worked - its just 100%.

Thanks!

I spent several months when I first dropped in to Steemit trying to find out from people how things actually work. While there are some really good pieces of advice about what kind of posts do well, how to engage with posts, how to work community – there is some pretty widespread misconception about how the reward pool works.

I've looked at the code of people who have worked through the actual server stuff – and no one really outside of Steemit themselves understand all of the mechanisms and variables going on under the hood. Which just encouraged me to try and understand it from a process point of view rather than from a numeric point of view.

Honestly, I'm not sure that I understand it even still. But some things are fairly apparent.

Does all of this in your post explain why for the 2 months I have been on here, my account is worth less then 40$. That includes the 9 STEEM I transfered from Binance as an experiment to see if having STEEM( I already own paid for with fiat not comments) being held here in SP would finally make my votes worth something or make my account somehow valuable. Thank god I did not transfer all of them! At this moment they are worth 3.22 each on Binance- which is kinda shitty but I still wish I never moved them here. At least I would have another 30$. I do not understand this. For all of my activity here in 2 months including 9 STEEM my wallet holds less then $40! Really... at this point I only still stay on steemit because its more interesting then other social media, the people are smart and blockchain tech is fascinating and this place has a wealth of info and opinions on the subject.... not to mention that my friends on FB and Instagram and Twitter are morons.
I feel kind of robbed for the 9 STEEM and that sucks to feel bitter towards steemit because of it.
I am trying to support steemit the best I can... (My original intention was to transfer ALL of my STEEM coins over here then power up)... as I struggle to understand it.
The craziest part is that the night I made my first transfer from Binance my steemit wallet was worth something like $80-$100... BEFORE I brought my STEEM here, the next few days STEEM even went up to 4.45 on Binance and my account there shot way up as my Steemit wallet kept dipping. What am I missing here? Please help.
BTW...
I found your profile and started following you because I saw what you said to that ghoul who ran the "show me your tits" contest and had much respect for you. I wanted to chime in with a comment as well but I did not want to be on the blockchain for eternity with him.

Your steem, whether powered up or not, whether on binance or steem or any other exchange, is worth the same, you have not lost it.

It only raises your upvote power when it is powered up in your wallet though.

I did power it up. I power up everything as soon as I get any credits in my wallet. I think I have like $3 in my wallet that I did not power up because I figured I would wait until I had more before I do. I have no intention of powering down... from what I understand I can't anyways. for like 2 years. Am I supposed to "Delegate" to people? would that be worth anything to anyone if I do? If so... does it matter if I do it to someone who is actually interesting to me but is not balling out of control? Or is that like the blind leading the blind? Btw... Thank you for taking the time to respond. Do you have any idea what happened to the $80 or so dollars I had earned in my wallet before bringing over my STEEM? Is the SP not included in the estimated value of a wallet?

Oh, one more point as regards delegation.

No, you're not supposed to delegate people. It's a thing you can do when you have a lot of SP and someone or something that you want to have more voting power desires it. In that case, you can temporarily loan your SP to someone else to increase their own power. You still own it and you still get the interest that accrues on it, but for all intents and purposes that involve affecting the blockchain, the person to whom you have delegated your SP gets the benefit.

Honestly, you're better off holding onto your SP until you have a significant voting power value and then just use your SP indirectly to up vote things you like. That's how you get more things you like.

So it is only a loan? That is pretty awesome and creative. Steemit is extrdanary!

Delegation is a loan that can be recalled at any time, for any reason, or never.

It is possible to transfer SP from one account to another so that ownership is fully completely subsumed, but the easiest way is probably to power down and then just transfer that STEEM wherever you want it.

I'm not sure that the idea of SP being a resource that can be loaned out is particularly awesome and creative; usury has been a part of human financial engagement for a thousand years in some parts of the world, and on Steemit it has led to the proliferation of bots which vote up less than quality content. Some of the side effects are less than desirable.

But it is a loan.

SP is included, but the SBD value is calculated at face value not market value (the $3 is valued at $3 not $12). But those same Steems (Steem and Steem Power are the same token) have not lost their value, they just moved from binance wallet to steem wallet.

The estimated value can be tricky, because it is based on a weighted average market price (you can see this price on steemnow.com, and if you click on the price in the upper right corner, it will show you a graph). The average market price of steem has fallen recently (but has risen over the medium term). When each steem was worth over 8 dollars, your account might have been estimated at $80 dollars or more. Now, those same steems are only worth $35. Did you lose money? No! You still have the same stake as before, but the valuation went down. It will go back up, and down, and up many times in the future as in the past.

You can power down your steem power and you will get 1/13th, (in your case about 0.85 steem) each week for 13 weeks, until all of your steem power is again in liquid (moveable) steem tokens.

Blessings!

Thank you so much. I really was not on here to get rich. I just wanted to understand the way everything works. I view the wallet part as like getting gold stars from a teacher for a good paper. One last question if you don't mind? Do you think it would be beneficial to move the rest of my STEEM over and power up? Sorry if I ask dumb questions.

Nevermind to my last question. I got my answer. Thanks again

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Very nice explanation.

While you're at it: Why is the SBD pegging broken, and how does it work in the first place? Cheers :-)

Oh, this one is easy:

"Broken as designed."

That's not entirely fair. SBD pegging is perfectly functional on the bottom end; the pressures which exist to push it up beyond and above one dollar of USD work just fine. But there is no bounding on the top end. There is no pressure to push it back down toward one dollar USD – which is fine, really. If SBD rides higher than the peg, it can be traded out advantageously. If SBD drops lower than the bottom end peg, less of it gets made and more people choose to take their payouts in SP at 100% rather than 50/50, which reduces the rate at which SBD enters the pool, theoretically increasing its value by making it more rare.

In practice, things are always more complicated.

I'm not so sure if SBD without an upper bound is really fine. Sure, you can trade it advantageously, but it also causes a lot of confusion.

This makes explaining the whole concept of Steemit to others even more complicated. "So you know, the platform is based on this Cryptocurrency, STEEM, whose inflation pays for original content. But to make it more appealing to everyone, so you don't have to think constantly about the exchange rate of STEEM, and to make your life easier, everything is rewarded in Dollar. Well, in fact it's not real $, but it's called Steem Backed Dollar, and it's worth more than 3 $..."

To my mind this kind of defeats the whole purpose of SBD.

I absolutely agree that SPD not being upper bounded makes describing what's going on in the steem blockchain a lot more complicated. There are three commodities that can be traded and have direct effect on your experience of Steemit: STEEM, SPD, and SP (even though trading the last is a terrible idea). There is another commodity which cannot be traded: Reputation. It can only be accumulated. But it still counts as a commodity because it affects how your interaction with the Steemit interface (and some portions of the blockchain) go off.

If you're trying to describe how things work here to someone new – this puts you in a terrible hole already.

So don't do it while referring to any kind of cryptocurrency. Instead, in your head and in your mouth, refer to steem as purely a points system. A way to keep score. Leave aside entirely the idea that it can be traded off platform for some kind of valuation. Avoid that for the same reason that if you were talking about World of Warcraft to a new player, you would mention that you can buy and sell gold to Chinese gold farmers.

Get them on board with the idea that they can blog and interact socially and that the quality of their interactions may be rated by their peers using this point system that is based on up votes and flags. Get them to understand this sort of internal economy first.

You're going to have a hard enough time just doing that.

Avoid using the word "dollar" at any point during this description. Refer to it only and purely as SBD. If specifically asked, waved them off and tell them that you will define it specifically better later.

Once you have someone on board with the idea that their interactions can be rated by other users and rewarded by a token that's exchanged on the platform itself, then the and only then can you talk about the fact that such a token can be bought and sold for real money.

SBD has a lower bound and no upper bound because it was originally conceived of as the actual trade good of the steem blockchain. Originally, way back in history (about a year), it seems that the original intent was for STEEM itself to not be traded off platform but for SBD to be the one currency interface for the outer world. That was thrown aside almost immediately. Now we have to currencies which can be traded for individual value outside the context of the platform, and as such they vary in exo-value because of the ratio of exchange found on the internal market. The ratio gives rise to arbitrage pressure, which pushes the values for both sides of the exchange around… Basically, it's a big mess.

You can imagine what things would be like if you could only trade SBD off platform. STEEM would vary in value only based on how much people wanted to keep in escrow with the platform or how much people wanted to trade between one another for goods and services on the platform, and SPD would be driven generally upwards by people who wanted to get into that market and downwards by people cashing out the profits that they've made inside the market.

The moment that SPD and SP were allowed to be traded off the platform, all of that complicated pegging (and all of my BDSM peeps just perked up) went out the window, SPD and STEEM now take economic pressure to keep the ratio very close to 1:1 for trading purposes because arbitrage makes it that way, and my suspicion is that it only distributes volatility across both currencies rather than isolates it in one external currency.

But hey, it's not the only way that Steemit has shot itself in the foot in terms of design, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Get them on board with the idea that they can blog and interact socially and that the quality of their interactions may be rated by their peers using this point system that is based on up votes and flags. Get them to understand this sort of internal economy first.

This makes it sound incredibly horrible. Besides, at this point the conversation drifts to "Uh, yeah, that sounds like in the Black Mirror episode..."

But hey, it's not the only way that Steemit has shot itself in the foot in terms of design, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Still, I'm quite amazed by the platform and how simply rewarding people with some tokens can lead to incredibly complex behavior and engagement (myself included). Sure, there's tons and tons (aaand tons) of crap, but also incredibly interesting and sophisticated stuff, take the SteemStem ecosystem, for example.

This makes it sound incredibly horrible. Besides, at this point the conversation drifts to "Uh, yeah, that sounds like in the Black Mirror episode..."

Sure. You're absolutely correct. And if you want to be honest with yourself and me – we both have to say, "yes, it's incredibly horrible."

This is why I have so many posts and comments which talk about the authoritarian impulse of assuming quality by largest mass applause. That's what the assumption which underlies Steemit as a reward architecture is all about. It doesn't care about what you like, or what I like, it only cares about what the most people like. And it divvies up rewards accordingly.

Though I prefer to point to the Orville episode rather than the Black Mirror episode because I find BM to be a fine descriptor of the kind of writing I find in that show.

Still, I'm quite amazed by the platform and how simply rewarding people with some tokens can lead to incredibly complex behavior and engagement (myself included). Sure, there's tons and tons (aaand tons) of crap, but also incredibly interesting and sophisticated stuff, take the SteemStem ecosystem, for example.

But this isn't new information. People have been pointing out that rewarding people for producing something that they like is a system that generally gets you more of what you like. Classically, it's been referred to as "free-market capitalism" and is largely responsible for the decrease of poverty worldwide from near omnipresent 60 years ago to actually quite rare today.

I find it interesting that so many people involved in cryptocurrencies are very hard fiscal liberals who just don't seem to have ever been exposed to the dynamics of how everyday economics around them actually function. It's fascinating. It's like driving slow by a bunch of kids on the side of the road poking at a discarded tire and wondering how it came to be there, and assuming that they are the first ones to have ever discovered round things made out of rubber. It's amazing.

Sturgeon's Law holds true of all things. 90% of everything is crap. It doesn't matter what motivates the creation, 90% of everything is crap.

People self defining communities and creating to serve a purpose and interest within those communities? That at least provides the most opportunity for things not to be crap. Being rewarded for things which are the kind of crap other people like, that provides the most opportunity for things not to be crap.

Like I said, these are not new ideas. They have nothing to do with cryptocurrencies or Steemit as a platform. We know these are true things. We've observed these true things. It's just that the people who generally talk about steem and blockchain technology don't seem to have even had a basic education in understanding how games work, how people interact with other people, how creators make things and why.

It's like they're touring an alien world and everything is new, but in reality they've been dropped out the back of a truck in Paducah, Kentucky, and there boggling at how everyday people live in rural areas.

I never have a real idea how seriously to take them, because in my experience I've never really met people who have so little knowledge and experience of life. It's really impressive.

I find it interesting that so many people involved in cryptocurrencies are very hard fiscal liberals who just don't seem to have ever been exposed to the dynamics of how everyday economics around them actually function. It's fascinating. It's like driving slow by a bunch of kids on the side of the road poking at a discarded tire and wondering how it came to be there, and assuming that they are the first ones to have ever discovered round things made out of rubber. It's amazing.

I wouldn't exclude myself from the poking kids. In fact, your short interlude was quite eye opening. Thanks :-)

Still, I'd say there's something special about Steemit; in terms of what and how stuff is rewarded. Indeed the way to obtain the tokens is rather limited in comparison to full free market capitalism. In the latter, some people do not hesitate to wage war or slaughter other folks just to get some of the tokens. Here you rather have to convince others to like your stuff so that they spend other people's money (!) on it. I mean, since the reward pool is basically a weird way of taxation, everybody kind of plays government and it kinda works.

This actually got me thinking: Could a state or government exist without any direct taxation, but all expenses from security over education to infrastructure would only be paid by inflation? Probably not, instead of your actual currency, everything would be traded in cigarettes (maybe the tobacco industry is not doomed after all?). Yet, strangely enough, here it works. It even creates some kind of feeling that everyone is sitting in the same boat, and a lot of the users are honestly trying hard to improve the platform for everyone.

IMO this is quite different to the rest of the Cryptosphere. On Bitcointalk, for example, there's more the us against them attitude (and much, much less respect for grammar, orthography, or human life in general). I got my weird altcoin I believe in, so I shill it to the moon and spread FUD about all the others. While we're at it, can I convince you of my own currency? You might actually enjoy it, just google for a smart contract that allows you to sell your soul on the Blockchain :-D. Believe me, this is the one and only currency that will rule'm all, but I digress...

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Thanks for the info. I'm a little sad all of this isn't explained in the FAQ but faqit. I have a question though:

If I took that 10,000 SP delegation and instead gave out ten thousand 1 SP delegations to people who then used that one SP delegation to self vote – I would have affected the reward pool in exactly the same way as if I gave it all to myself.

That's not entirely true! Because whoever has the 10kSP gets more rewards. Strictly speaking, yeah, it doesn't affect the reward pool, but it does affect rewards?

Also, @freebornangle is not a valid user. Was this used just as an example?

Cheers

That's not entirely true! Because whoever has the 10kSP gets more rewards. Strictly speaking, yeah, it doesn't affect the reward pool, but it does affect rewards?

It really doesn't in the sense that I intended. There is no scaling in that sense underneath the system. Even if were talking about the interest rate trickle that holders of SP yet, that stays exactly the same when considered across the set of delegations.

Though you do have a point, because the possessor of the delegation gets the interest accrual and not those to whom it is delegated. To really be perfectly accurate my parable would have had to state "give away that SP" rather than "delegate it."

The difference is pretty minor, but accurate. Good catch.

Now, it's kind of an open question where those interest rewards for SP holders actually come from. I've been operating under the assumption that they are part of the constant reward pool and come out as some percentage before the votes get calculated in. Anything else would actually affect the overall interest rate per year, and that would seem to be a bigger problem. So I've been operating under the assumption that all of the SP interest gain comes from the reward pool itself.

It would be interesting to work out how much of the reward pool is actually getting directed to static holders of SP alone and how much of it is getting directed via votes, but I suspect that the math for that is going to be elusive. Someone may have already calculated it, for all I know.

Also, @freebornangle is not a valid user. Was this used just as an example?

That was me just picking up an original cut-and-paste error from the original that has since been fixed.

Though "freeborn angle" is a way better and more cool concept for a name.

It was, of course, @freebornangel.

Ok, thanks for the info.

Btw etymologically words angel and angle are likely connected. While some would say nooo angel is from greek angelos (messenger) from unknown angaros (mounted courrier), while angle is from greek ankylos (bent); truth is they can both be traced to sanskrit, and that means they are connected. Even if the word roots are only similar, they are connected. E.g. mother and material from sanskrit root matr-

:P

Or they both are oblique references to Hounds of Tindalos, which can only attack us through angles in our geometric universe.

No one wants to be chased by Tindalos Hounds!

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