It's funny that you say it's "invest to win" because a couple of weeks ago there was a similar discussion about the Steem blockchain in general with regards to Resource Credits. A lot of people were saying that the Steem blockchain was a "pay to play" system and I said that it was really more of an "invest to play" system!
You're absolutely right about Steem monsters being invest to win, which is something that the blockchain allows us to easily do that almost all other digital games don't offer.
That being said, in my opinion it is too much invest to win right now. This is only the very first version and we a have lot of changes and improvements to come. Specifically regarding the "invest to win" aspect, we plan to both add more skill element to the game and provide opportunities to earn more cards and level them up through gameplay.
I would be lying if I would say that I didn't read the passage about RCs you are refering to ;)
Yeah, for the current modus with an ELO System it might be too much, especially because worse players can comensate their skill and just copy decks. So you basically just need to buy the cards and copy decks. But once there are different modes (like a KO-system), own deck building skills become way more important imo.
And of course there could be other modes which allow way less room for such problems. I have been thinking about one a lot during my train ride today. I will post about it tomorrow, as it would be too long for a comment at this point. I will present the idea on SM-Discord as well then.
Your announcements regarding more skill elements, etc. sound great by the way! :)
A lot of people were saying that the Steem blockchain was a "pay to play" system and I said that it was really more of an "invest to play" system!
Nevertheless, we should not forget that we need the people ... it is not that the people need us (the STEEM blockchain). So we should be attractive for newbies, not demanding. :)
... we plan to ... add more skill element to the game ...
For me "pay-to-win" equals "invest-to-win" - in the end its nothing for the small fishes. But anyway: As long as the players/investor have fun, it*s good for the developers ^^
"pay-to-win" - you pay in order to increase your chances of winning, not mattering what your skill level is
"invest-to-win" - you invest in the gear necessary to compete on the level you want to compete in. Once you have reached that investment, you can't pay more to win more easily.
I know, it's just a slight difference and there is no 100% line in between those things.
Very well put, Martin. Aggroed calls it Stake to play, which works well too.
There is so much that's novel about this game, it's hard to recognise the value of actually owning your cards.
Great skiing analogy, too.
Thank you :) Aggroeds term is nice as well, yes!
I think this is where the biggest advantage of the blockchain kicks in - you own your cards and you also can see who owns which cards. Therefore you can be pretty sure that the owners just don't print themselves great cards and make money by selling them for example.
For me it unites the advantages and fun of a trading-card-game with the benefits of a blockchain :)
Of course it is P2W.
Professional sport requires a huge investment, not only the skiers, suit, but also additional resources like psychologists, physicians, massagers, cooks etc. that accompany the top players in some sports. But that is a completely other level of investment, so I would not use this as a comparison.
If you define "I2W" broad enough, then all games are in that group, even chess, because to be a top player, you need to invest in time to get the skills. But this makes no sense, in chess you find tons of players at all levels and you can spend whole nights of exciting play without spending a single cent (e.g. on the fee lichess.org platform).
So I would be honest and call it maybe a low level, but still P2W.
Just as playing chess is possible with just a set of figures and a board, playing SteemMonsters is possible with just a set of level 1 monsters. You might also enjoy many fights against similar ranked players (more joy will come with more cards and more options) - But you won't be able to have success on a competitive level - Just like you won't have success at competitive chess tournaments by just enjoying games with friends.
I am not against calling STEEM-Monsters a P2W game - my point is that almost all competitive stuff requires a certain amout of investment in order to being able to compete on a bigger scale.
To be honest it's a bit funny from my own experience. the game seem to do a better job at matching me into fair fights when I use level 1 summoner. It's actually at the point where I straight up win more from this instead of using one of my "higher" (currently lvl 5).
So right now it feels like you either have to super invest into very high levels or just stay at level 1 lol.
As I got my butt routinely kicked by decks that had gold foil cards max level with Selena Sky Summoner i was thinking that at this point those that had a lot of money would have won and it was apparent with a lot of those in the top 50 who looking at their decks usually had a legendary or two or at least max level cards.
Of course there are others that won by being able to analyze and think of a good deck for the mana cost.
Yet when cards start earning experience from battles and eventually max out then it will be a little bit closer and here counters and combinations will determine who can win.
I have in several instances have kicked some of the dragon based decks with my poor man's deck because of a good counter.
So early on since they invested they have a higher chance but it does not make them unbeatable. There will always be someone who will be able to counter your deck.
Now if point boosters, no points removed if you lose and other items would be sold then that could be a case of a play to win.
Right now I am just enjoying the game although at times when I see a familiar name that kicked my ass earlier I cringe and know I will lose. I hope that there can be a nerf on that where a player can be attacked by the same player more than 2-3 times because it really sucks that you start a win streak and then you see a name and you curse because you know your streak is broken.
You might want to be able to beat higher level decks with skill if the player with the higher ranked deck plays bad
At the moment their is not sutch thing as bad play in my Opinion ! The Only thing you can make bad is how you position your Monsters ,everything else is not in your influence. in Other games like magic the gathering or Hearthstone you can realy make bad plays but not in a game where no interaction is and everything is made automatically.
What i like Steemmonsters is a quick Game . You can make 20 Games in a hour .
And yes the game has a little bit from p2w as long monsters dont lvl by fighting .
To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.
Brought to you by @tts. If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.
It's funny that you say it's "invest to win" because a couple of weeks ago there was a similar discussion about the Steem blockchain in general with regards to Resource Credits. A lot of people were saying that the Steem blockchain was a "pay to play" system and I said that it was really more of an "invest to play" system!
You're absolutely right about Steem monsters being invest to win, which is something that the blockchain allows us to easily do that almost all other digital games don't offer.
That being said, in my opinion it is too much invest to win right now. This is only the very first version and we a have lot of changes and improvements to come. Specifically regarding the "invest to win" aspect, we plan to both add more skill element to the game and provide opportunities to earn more cards and level them up through gameplay.
I would be lying if I would say that I didn't read the passage about RCs you are refering to ;)
Yeah, for the current modus with an ELO System it might be too much, especially because worse players can comensate their skill and just copy decks. So you basically just need to buy the cards and copy decks. But once there are different modes (like a KO-system), own deck building skills become way more important imo.
And of course there could be other modes which allow way less room for such problems. I have been thinking about one a lot during my train ride today. I will post about it tomorrow, as it would be too long for a comment at this point. I will present the idea on SM-Discord as well then.
Your announcements regarding more skill elements, etc. sound great by the way! :)
Nevertheless, we should not forget that we need the people ... it is not that the people need us (the STEEM blockchain). So we should be attractive for newbies, not demanding. :)
That's great. :)
For me "pay-to-win" equals "invest-to-win" - in the end its nothing for the small fishes. But anyway: As long as the players/investor have fun, it*s good for the developers ^^
Hm, for me personally:
"pay-to-win" - you pay in order to increase your chances of winning, not mattering what your skill level is
"invest-to-win" - you invest in the gear necessary to compete on the level you want to compete in. Once you have reached that investment, you can't pay more to win more easily.
I know, it's just a slight difference and there is no 100% line in between those things.
Very well put, Martin. Aggroed calls it Stake to play, which works well too.
There is so much that's novel about this game, it's hard to recognise the value of actually owning your cards.
Great skiing analogy, too.
Thank you :) Aggroeds term is nice as well, yes!
I think this is where the biggest advantage of the blockchain kicks in - you own your cards and you also can see who owns which cards. Therefore you can be pretty sure that the owners just don't print themselves great cards and make money by selling them for example.
For me it unites the advantages and fun of a trading-card-game with the benefits of a blockchain :)
We have already discussed this at length today. I fully endorse your conclusion.
#invest-to-win is a nice term, which also describes it well.
I'm very excited to see how others feel about it.
Of course it is P2W.
Professional sport requires a huge investment, not only the skiers, suit, but also additional resources like psychologists, physicians, massagers, cooks etc. that accompany the top players in some sports. But that is a completely other level of investment, so I would not use this as a comparison.
If you define "I2W" broad enough, then all games are in that group, even chess, because to be a top player, you need to invest in time to get the skills. But this makes no sense, in chess you find tons of players at all levels and you can spend whole nights of exciting play without spending a single cent (e.g. on the fee lichess.org platform).
So I would be honest and call it maybe a low level, but still P2W.
Just as playing chess is possible with just a set of figures and a board, playing SteemMonsters is possible with just a set of level 1 monsters. You might also enjoy many fights against similar ranked players (more joy will come with more cards and more options) - But you won't be able to have success on a competitive level - Just like you won't have success at competitive chess tournaments by just enjoying games with friends.
I am not against calling STEEM-Monsters a P2W game - my point is that almost all competitive stuff requires a certain amout of investment in order to being able to compete on a bigger scale.
To be honest it's a bit funny from my own experience. the game seem to do a better job at matching me into fair fights when I use level 1 summoner. It's actually at the point where I straight up win more from this instead of using one of my "higher" (currently lvl 5).
So right now it feels like you either have to super invest into very high levels or just stay at level 1 lol.
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Interesting, need to try that out tomorrow :D
As I got my butt routinely kicked by decks that had gold foil cards max level with Selena Sky Summoner i was thinking that at this point those that had a lot of money would have won and it was apparent with a lot of those in the top 50 who looking at their decks usually had a legendary or two or at least max level cards.
Of course there are others that won by being able to analyze and think of a good deck for the mana cost.
Yet when cards start earning experience from battles and eventually max out then it will be a little bit closer and here counters and combinations will determine who can win.
I have in several instances have kicked some of the dragon based decks with my poor man's deck because of a good counter.
So early on since they invested they have a higher chance but it does not make them unbeatable. There will always be someone who will be able to counter your deck.
Now if point boosters, no points removed if you lose and other items would be sold then that could be a case of a play to win.
Right now I am just enjoying the game although at times when I see a familiar name that kicked my ass earlier I cringe and know I will lose. I hope that there can be a nerf on that where a player can be attacked by the same player more than 2-3 times because it really sucks that you start a win streak and then you see a name and you curse because you know your streak is broken.
At the moment their is not sutch thing as bad play in my Opinion ! The Only thing you can make bad is how you position your Monsters ,everything else is not in your influence. in Other games like magic the gathering or Hearthstone you can realy make bad plays but not in a game where no interaction is and everything is made automatically.
What i like Steemmonsters is a quick Game . You can make 20 Games in a hour .
And yes the game has a little bit from p2w as long monsters dont lvl by fighting .
Well, deck building and knowing when to use which deck also is a Skill :)
Leveling by fighting is announced to come!
To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.
Brought to you by @tts. If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.
you're awesome! Your presentation is amazing!
Go! Go Telis team!!!