Steemmonsters - How About Some Fair Play?

in steemmonsters •  3 months ago 

Can't we agree on giving smaller players a chance in tournaments?

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Source

Unbalanced

I assume every Steemmonsters player can see that ever since the legendary summoners have been introduced, the game has become even more unbalanced than it already was.

It's no secret anymore that the game has become 'pay-for-play', but IMO that should not be an excuse to take away every single chance for a smaller player to win a tournament.

If we want to keep new and/or small players motivated, it is important they stand a chance in novice and even bronze tournaments. And like things are now, all we do is scare them away.

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Legendary summoners

I completely agree that the legendary summoners are awesome to play with, but at the current market prices, many people can't afford them. This goes for new people as well as for people who have already invested quite a lot of money in the game.

I can live with the fact that they are used in Gold and Diamond level tournaments - but not with the fact that you even need them in bronze or even novice tournaments.

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An Example

Below, you see the results of a novice tournament earlier today:

Screenshot_20190312_001447.jpgSource

As you can see, I'm guilty of ruining the game myself. There is no way I would be able to beat someone like @faiyazmahmud, who is a very talented player, if I wouldn't have my legendary summoners. @monstermother's deck is a level 6 deck I built by investing a lot of money. I haven't checked @bji1203's deck, but I expect it is at least a gold level deck too - probably even a lot higher than that.

@faiyazmahumd started not that very long ago and worked hard to get his deck up to level 3.

He has the talent to win novice and bronze tournaments with his eyes closed... but he doesn't stand a chance against the legendary summoners both me and @bji1203 were using.

This was supposed to be a Novice tournament, and IMO, we're ruining it for the smaller players.

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Did We Lose All Sense Of Ethics?

With a Diamond level deck, one can play every tournament that is out there. A gold level deck, like mine, gives you access to all tourneys except for Diamond, which means there are still plenty of opportunities to join and win and earn.

Have we become so greedy that we want to steal that small amount of Steem that can be won by the smaller players in novice tournaments? It's not just the Steem we steal, we also take away their chances to win some extra money they can use to build their deck. Not to mention their motivation to enter.

Is that 10 Steem extra worth it to take away the chances of smaller players? Have we really fallen that low?

I guess we have.

Even if @steemmonsters is not taking responsibility to bring back some balance, we should stay true to ourselves and find a solution.

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My QuestionTo You

Can't we all agree to turn at least the novice tournaments back into what they were supposed to be: tournaments in which smaller players can compete against each other and maybe win some Steem to build there deck.

I realize there is no way to tell if someone is really new to the game, or is just playing a lower level alt. but it would be a huge step in the right direction if we could agree on not using the legendary summoners in novice tournaments.

An even bigger step in the right direction would be to not join those tourneys at all. Because, like it or not, joining them as a high level player is nothing but unfair.

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Top 10

Looking at the top 10 of that same novice tournament, it's pretty clear to me we're killing the fun ánd the chances of a lot of people...

#1 @monstermother
#2 @bji1203
#3 @faiyazmahmud
#4 @xawi
#5 @sensful
#6 @battlemaster
#7 @cranium
#8 @zaku
#9 @steemitromney

Except for @faiyazmahmud and maybe @steemitromney, none of those people belong in novice tournaments.

How about it? Can't we all agree to skip the novice tournaments and give the real novices a chance?



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Stay tuned.

There’s a solution being worked on for that specific issue. Yaba asked me to do something over the weekend that, once implemented, will probably make you happy. If anything, it will be a step in the direction you’re hoping to go.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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Meanwhile, I found out about the new option to disable the legendary summoners. Great!
I do like them, but the game is already unbalanced enough as it is.

Btw - it's a funny coincidence that just now you reply to my post. I have been yelling at your SM deck yesterday, because you were so hard to beat ;0)

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I just hosted the first tournament without legs for later today btw - Check out @taug for more details, as sm is down!

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lol, I was already in the middle of commenting on your post :0)

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Oh no, I just saw... it filters out ALL the legendaries....
Okay, that will definitely level the playing field a bit more. Whether I personally like it or not, that's a different story, lol

While I too want to give new players some new player restricted tournaments I don't completely agree with the reasoning that Novice games are for Novice players / Bronze for Bronze ect. I'm a gambler who plays allot of poker and I view the Novice tournaments similar to how I view micro buy ins for poker tournaments. They are simply just a different buy in level of play.

The ones who have the most advantage in Bronze / Silver / Novice or any other level play are the ones that play in that level the most. Meaning if you have a bronze level deck and are consistently playing in Bronze level games then you have the edge over anyone who is not.

Another reason as to why some of us with higher level decks are joining smaller level games is the lack of game selection. If I log in and feel like playing a SM tournament and the only one about to run is a Novice game in 20 minutes with no other official SM games to be seen for hours then I am going to join and play that tournament. If on the other hand there was a Silver tournament starting somewhere around the same time then I would opt in to playing that one instead.

A new feature has been added that allows tournament host to disallow legendary monsters, which is great. The more variety in tournament creation the less likely these games become dull and hopefully this new feature will create more winners.

I routinely get stomped in Novice games when I play them (regardless of using the new summoners or not). Moving down in limits can be just as hard as moving up.

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Lol, I had expected nothing else from you, @rentmoney. Somehow we always seem to disagree on the details. 😄
I already liked you before SM even existed, but our never-ending disagreements about SM made me like you even more. It's so easy with you to agree that we disagree, lol.

But let's break that cycle. For once, I almost completely agree with what you're saying.
I'm the first one to acknowledge that playing at levels under the ones you are used to isn't easy at all. For example, I'm really not good in Bronze. At one point, I created a separate bronze level account, just to keep the feeling of that level.

I can't tell you how many times in novice or bronze tournaments I waited for the Elemental Phoenix and the Fire Demon to blast, lol. Only to realize they don't get that feature at lvl 2 for EP and lvl 3 for FD.
Same for the Earth tree. I keep using him as if he has the self-heal, while he doesn't. 😂

I don't mind Diamond players signing up for Bronze or Silver, but novice is supposed to give people some tournament experience. When a novice tourney is paying out only the top 6 out of 60 players, and the top 15 places are taken by players who have been playing for months and know as good as all the tricks in the book, I can only assume it is pretty discouraging for people who are fairly new to the game.

Once you have a deck that can play bronze tournament, you do have some experience, and I think it can only be a good learning experience to play against players that know the game better than you do.
Equal chances there, because, like you say, if you're used to play in higher leagues, it is not easy to play at a lower level.

However, my main concern were the summoners. I love them, because it gives you more options to choose from, but they are so expensive a lot of people can't afford them. And I thought they were out of place in a novice tourney.
Apparently, I published this post a day too soon, since apparently they had been working on that. Glad to see it's an option whether to allow them or not.

Another reason as to why some of us with higher level decks are joining smaller level games is the lack of game selection. If I log in and feel like playing a SM tournament and the only one about to run is a Novice game in 20 minutes with no other official SM games to be seen for hours then I am going to join and play that tournament.

I can only agree with that. I saw a proposal somewhere a couple of days ago - I think it was yours - to have sit and go's 24/7 - as soon as the required number of players signed up, the tourney would start. once it would finish, it would appear in the list again. I'm all for that.

I hate it to schedule everything around a tournament that starts at say 5pm, and then find out a friend decides to pay me an unattended visit at that time, lol. I have been joining as many as I can - which were a lot in the past two days - my wrist hurts from moving and clicking that mouse 😂 - and I also joined the novice ones, because there were no other ones to join.

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I already liked you before SM even existed, but our never-ending disagreements about SM made me like you even more. It's so easy with you to agree that we disagree, lol.

Likewise, you are a great asset to anything you're apart of. Keep up all the great work that you do.

I saw a proposal somewhere a couple of days ago - I think it was yours - to have sit and go's 24/7 - as soon as the required number of players signed up, the tourney would start. once it would finish, it would appear in the list again. I'm all for that.

Yeah that was me. I brought it up a number of times and others might have also. I envision a lobby that no matter the time of day someone logs in there is a game about to start. I think that is an important part to getting mass adaption. If the casual player logs in enough times and don't find a game to play they will find another way to occupy their time and SM then becomes an after thought to them.

I hear you on that tree healer. I lost my fair share of lower level games forgetting it doesn't have heal. I am also all for a league that is JUST for newbies. Either introduce another one ( call it the Beginner League) or restructure the Novice League to fit it. I still feel the best way to do this is introduce a time limit to certain tournaments. For example have Newbie Tournaments that only accounts 90 days or younger can play. After 90 days you are no longer a newbie and are fair game. Prizes should be small (as to not encourage abuse) but at least it lets newbies face newbies.

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You mentioned that 90 days-idea a couple of times, and the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. Before, I assumed Novice tournaments would be used for people to get experience, but they're not. An 'age'-restricted series of tournaments could do the trick.

I just saw the new option put into practice, and it's a perfect example of 'be careful what you wish for'. All I wanted was a restriction on the legendary summoners in the novice league - instead I get tournaments without any kind of legendaries... 😢

Now I don't know if I like this new update or not 😂

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The ones who have the most advantage in Bronze / Silver / Novice or any other level play are the ones that play in that level the most. Meaning if you have a bronze level deck and are consistently playing in Bronze level games then you have the edge over anyone who is not.

That may be partially true, but the winners are always the usual suspects. Maybe a solution would be to run tournaments at the same times, but with different rules / limitations. The Silver and Gold ones could have slightly higher prizes to attack the better players, but the novice and bronze ones could still have some prizes and maybe less competition from the masters.

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Skill still plays a factor and the ones winning at the top are very skillful in this game so they have a chance in any league. The advantage still goes towards to the player who plays the most in each individual league as they are more familiar with its game play.

run tournaments at the same times

I have brought that up multiple times and it has multiple benefits. Currently the game lobby is seriously lacking in the games department. So much more can be done. Sometimes there are no official games for an 8 hour period which is not good for mass adaption.

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Tell me about it. Today was a tournament-less day for me. I only just missed the one from Taug.
I didn't like it one little bit, because today I had one of those days on which everything seems to work out like planned. It would have been a great day for tourney :0/

Posted using Partiko Android

I strongly agree with your every point but have you checked my cards deck? I'm silver level player I can't play gold tournament. I'm investing my all money too. If you are seeing me in top 10 players then it just because of skills not because I have so much good deck

Last point again I agree with you but those players you have mentioned @bji1203 @zaku etc they have invested huge money and they want to get back their investment it's pure kind of a business we can't blame them if I and you have enough money so surely we will do the same there is no point to criticise them game format is like that thanks 😃

Posted using Partiko Android

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Sorry, @xawi. I didn't check your deck indeed, and I should have. I initially started this post after talking to @faiyazmahmud and finding out that he didn't have the legendary summoners. I've been following up on him since he started playing, and it didn't take him to become a much better player than I will ever be. The difference between me and him is that I could afford the 5 legendary summoners, and he couldn't.

I was triggered by a post from @bubke in which he showed me a screenshot of a Diamond level tournament with 275 Steem as a prize. I can't enter those myself, but there are plenty of bronze, silver and gold ones I can enter.

If you read the comment that @ntowl has written below - I think that's how a lot of smaller players feel.

I invested quite some money too, and after all, we were promised that we would be able to get some of our investment back by playing (and winning) tournaments. But IMO, if things don't change, in the long run smaller players won't even bother to sign up for tournaments anymore.

I don't care about Gold, Silver, or even Bronze if you want, but Novice is called Novice for a reason. And if we keep beating newcomers with cards like the legendary summoners, which are so expensive that only few can afford... well, I think it is simply not fair.
But then again... these last couple of months, 'fair' is not really the word one would use to describe SM.

I realize that although I promised myself that I wouldn't do it anymore, once again I'm fighting a battle I can not win when trying to give smaller accounts a fair chance.

It's indeed SM who should take care this can't happen, but even if they don't, I think it's up to the players to use common sense.

And I do plead guilty as charged. After all, that's my account at the top of the leaderboard.

But that will have been the last Novice tournament I have entered. If we want to keep the smaller players/newcomers to stick around, they need at least a chance stand a chance in a tournament. (We = all the high level deck players).

But like I said, as long as SM doesn't fix this, the decision is up to the players themselves.

Thanks for replying, and once again sorry for not doing proper research before writing the post.

@steemmonsters tournaments for big players only.small players are just participants. Thanks for bringing the truth @simplymike
I too faced @faiyazmahmud he is a good player.

See i won one game against a big player but remaining 2 games he won and i got defeated.
https://steemmonsters.com?battle=841a041e883548044b1e0998c4b9d06192dab18a&ref=summisimeon

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If you take away the legendary summoners, and if you have a complete deck, there is no such thing as big and small players. Only players with more experience than other players. Because in a novice tournament, all cards are capped to level 1, so if you have a complete deck, there is no big and small, only level 1.
Then, it just comes down on how much experience you have and how good you know the cards and the gameplay. And the only way to become an experienced players is to keep playing, and try to learn from your opponents.

I mainly play Silver and Gold level, and I can assure you it is more difficult for me to play at level 1 than for someone who is used to play a level 1 deck. Because the higher level your cards are, the more abilities they have. When you use those abilities daily, you develop strategies. But when you have to play at level 1 again, those abilities are not there anymore.
Someone who is playing a level 1 deck all the time, has developed strategies to make the most out of that level 1 deck, and is often better at it than a higher level player.

The summoners make it really unfair, though, because they give a player a lot of advantage, but they are way too expensive for most people

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I think we can't stop people from playing in any level tournaments because they want their investment back and profitable. I think there is an option while we challenge others in a tourney like "no legendary" card things... choose that option in any novice tourney instead of "all cards" would be good.

Don't be too sorry for the small deck player @simplymike 😉 they're not small.. if they can have 2-3 decks, I don't think it's small.

I 💯% agree with you @simplymike. Why a Diamond League player would enter a Novice tournament really doesn't make any since. But I probably shouldn't play either since I reached Gold II. Maybe the tournaments should be by current point total. Novice league could be anybody under 800 points. Bronze 801-1200. Silver 1201-2000. etc

Posted using Partiko Android

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If you scroll up a bit to @rentmoney's comment, he does make some valid points. Being used to play at higer levels doesn't necessarily give you an advantage when playing level one.
I keep using the Earth tree in bronze tournaments, expecting him to have self-heal. But he doesn't until level 4, lol.

Anyway, the new update will level the playing field a bit more, I guess. I thought it would be 'no legendary summoners', but instead it is 'no legendaries' at all.... 😕

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Well, I get frustrated but I'll continue to play as it helps me learn the game. 🤞

Posted using Partiko Android

They are trying to encourage their biggest spenders to spend more. However, blocking people from participating in lower levels would make sense. Maybe it is fair to go one tier down, but going two tiers down is mean.
I guess they either don't care or are working on a solution that will bring them optimal profit.

Posted using Partiko Android

In my opinion, all players can join in any kind of tournaments. But, they should make the game fair, so that we can at least compete with each other & enjoy the game.

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They've just released a new kind of tournament. One that doesn't allow the legendary summoners... and no legendary monsters either. 😢 I love my legendary monsters, lol.
Any way, this might level the playing field a bit...

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Yeah, i checked it. But that is a silver league. -_-

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Apparently they will be using the feature mainly for novice and bronze level tournaments. This was only the first experiment...

I'm currently in rest mode from play Steemmonsters.

Having a constructive feedback such as this is really good for the betterment of the game.

Hopefully aggroed and the team are currently looking at it.

Posted using Partiko Android

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It seems I published my post 1 day too soon. Apparently they were already working on an update that would allow tournaments without legendaries...

Well now I'm terrified to try a tournament! I'm a new player and was frustrated just playing initially. Then after some friendly advice I managed to squeak into the Silver league. But I have no idea what I'm doing and the tournaments seem way beyond me - even novice if what you say is right.

Someday I'll be brave and give it a try...but i'll wait until I actually know how to play and all the nice higher level players agree not to pick on newbies.

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Today, they have released an option to disable the legendary summoners, which will level the playing field a little again.

Don't be terrified - I didn't mean to scare anyone off. You should see tournaments as a learning experience. They give you a chance to play against players you don't come across in the day-to-day rank play, and learn from them. And that's way better than having to play against bots all the time. 😉

The worst thing that can happen is that you lose your battle. But even then, you will have gained experience. And experience is what the game is about. The more experience you have, the better you know your cards, the better you know the game, and the higher your chances are to win battles.

These last two days, I won a couple of prizes in tournament, but I lost just as many times (or even more) in the 1st round...

If you have no idea what you're doing, you might want to check out the post I made a while ago. It contains links to the tutorials that helped me out the most when I just started.
https://steemit.com/steemmonsters/@simplymike/you-can-play-steemmonsters-too-the-best-beginner-tutorials-compiled

Once you get the basics, all you need to do is play and experiment to find out what works and what doesn't.

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Thank you for the link! I ran a contest a little while ago asking for advice for beginners and that’s what let me get this far. I’ll follow your suggestions and learn what I can so I don’t feel like I’m stumbling around in the dark.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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I'm not an expert on the matter (yet), but if you have any questions, feel free to ask. You can always contact me theough Discord (@simplymike#5957)

Its been some time since i stopped playing altogether because of this exact same reason, not going to burn 1000s of $$ on a game

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Same for me, the only way out is to code the restrictions to match the levels.

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They've added a new option that allows one to filter out all legendaries when creating a tournament now. Tournaments without legendaries... it is a way to level the playing field a bit...

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They just released a new option to filter out legendaries altogether. No legendary summoners, but no legendary cards either. I still have to decide whether I'm for it or not, lol. All I wanted was to get the legendary summoners out in the lower level tournaments to level the field a bit. I don't want to play without legendary monsters... 😢

In spite of everything that has been told in the beginning, these last couple of weeks, aggroed has made it very clear he aims for SM to become a game for high rollers with a lot of money to spend. Fortunately, there's the community and Matt, who have made sure he has to compromise a little. The more his players base thins out, the more compromises he will have to make - or so I hope.

Even though I know I'm fighting a losing battle, I refuse to give up on trying to allow the 'common people', who don't have truckloads of money to spend on a game, to enjoy it too.

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Its not about the money and more about the fun factor. I spend money but only on fps like R6 that r much more fun to play.

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Lucky yall have money to spend. :(

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For a PC or console game, you need to spend only 20-50$ for a year of fun.

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Thats what my cards are worth and wont go past silver level :(

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Hi @simplymike!

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Ya I am going to agree with your that I tried my first tournament and lost to those cards and it bummed me out. Because it wasn't a skill thing that card just had too much power. I was so happy to see one that banned those cards that I signed up and played again and won that one. It was fun to win a whole 8 steem profit but more fun to know the battles came down to skill not to using an overpowered card. I was getting tired of trying in other ones cause I only lost to those summoners. I even bought some packs so I have them at level 1 now but to have to spend that much money isn't a good option for new players. I mean we tell them to join up with a 10 dollar deck and come play with us. They will just lose. That being said I can't see people walking away from chances to win money that easy so hope that going forward I see more show up that ban those cards at least in the lower levels.

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Meanwhile, there's the 'no legendary cards' option in place for the lower level tournaments. I hope it is a step towards another option that only bans the legendary summoners, because I like the legendary cards a lot.

And I don't want to give the wrong impression: I do have 4 out of 5 legendary summoners leveled up to at least level 3, and I love to use them, both during ranked games as in tournaments. But I don't think they belong in a novice tournament, both because of their price and the fact that they are overpowered.

I've noticed that the fact that they unbalance the game even more, is now also addressed by the higher level players who have already invested a lot of money. That's a good thing, because maybe they'll listen to them and changes will be made.

Btw, if I'm not mistaking, I got kicked out of that tournament by you, lol. Well played, and congrats on the victory

!bookkeeping drugwars

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Hi @anouk.nox!

drugwars

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I agree that there should be a better balance, and I applaud you for always sticking up for the smaller players ♡

Posted using Partiko Android

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I can't help it. I'm more than aware of my privileged position:I live in a first world country, and I have the freedom to invest up until a certain limit. But there have been times in my life when this was totally different.
If I see how many people from countries like Bangladesh and Venezuela , just to name two examples, are active on SteemIt, but are discriminated because they don't have the liberty to invest truckloads of money, it just makes me sad to see how all those 'first world' people seem to refuse looking at things from a different perspective than their own...
Injustice is one of the few things that I simple can not - or will not tolerate. And although I can't wint he fight, I'll keep on fighting it. Because if no one does, there isn't even the slightest chance of change. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I wouldn't at least try to fight for equal rights. If I can reach at only one other person and make him see, it would be all worth it.

I think more importantly than not allowing legendary summoners in novice tournaments, maybe they should have some tournaments that only people with a low enough rating can even enter. I'm sure there are a lot of players who don't even bother entering because they see who wins every single time. Frankly, people just starting out could use the prizes more. I'm not saying there shouldn't be plenty of chances for the masters to earn prizes... just more options for setting up custom tournaments. I'm sure that's coming eventually. Even though some people would just use alt accounts, at least hopefully they'd be less intimidating.

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I couldn't agree more. I don't think I would enter if I didn't think I had at least a chance.

That's why this is a rather urgent issue ghey need to address. If nothing is done, people will stop signing up...

Posted using Partiko Android