The Future of Steemit

in steemit •  6 months ago

If you haven't heard about the drama going on, it started a few weeks ago when someone came to me and showed me one person (@haejin) getting almost $20K/day from mostly one person upvoting his 10+ posts a day. I talked to a few people about this and it resulted in the account getting flagged.

@berniesanders made a post showing a screenshot from steem.supply that showed how much @haejin would earn for the week. At the time, the number represented just two days of real voting, and if it continued for seven days it would be considerably higher.

At the time, the site the image was screenshotted had a bug that showed @haejin receiving 6.7% of the reward pool. It was later found this was a bug, and the owner of the site patched it. As you can see it reports over 2,700% of the reward pool which is not even possible.

I provided an updated screenshot and some charts showing one user @ranchorelaxo voting for the majority of the post value.

@haejin fixed on the inaccuracy of the % of reward pool and ordered his members to attack me. Likely because I am a small Mark and easy to brutalize and shut up. I ended up receiving death threats, being told I will be doxed and beaten up, called an awful Father and corrupt witness, harassed endlessly with over a hundred comments and received hundreds of downvotes taking away roughly $2,000 in rewards. But @haejin made two mistakes, first, he underestimated my persistence and ability to sacrifice myself for the greater good of the community, and the fact although steem.supply % of reward pool was bugged, it wasn't really that far off. In fact, if you factor in SBD conversion it was lower than the actual number.

When you calculate $380 x 10 a day, factor in curation rewards, factor in the conversion of SBD->Steem at the time, he was looking at around 4,500 STEEM/day. The STEEM blockchain generates 64,000 STEEM/day which puts this at around 7% total. Granted the SBD portion is a debt instrument and not part of the 64,000 STEEM generated a day, it just shows how massive this is.

For a while, I responded to every message to me, no matter how toxic and tried to be reasonable. After a hundred so of these comments, it was clear there was little to no understanding of how steem works and absolutely zero respect. I stopped responding to all the comments and was eventually contacted by someone close to @haejin.

I spent a good portion of my night speaking and being a poor guest for our New Year's Eve party. Although he was abusive to me on Steemit, he was very reasonable in our chat. I proposed @haejin decline his rewards past 5 posts. I would talk with other witnesses and come up with a consensus of what we felt was a good number because it is not my call to come up with one. We both agreed this would be reasonable, and he asked if that would stop the flagging. I said I think so, it would show good faith and something we can all work with.

@haejin previously claimed he was rich, and he didn't care about rewards.

Clipboard - December 24, 2017 10_46 AM.png

Later @haejin claims he will decline rewards if @randowhale did.


It was clear that was going to happen. I was contacted again by my contact and told @haejin presented two options.

The first option is all witnesses decline an equal amount, all witnesses. As far as I know, there is no witness that makes around $20K/day posting on Steemit. Nor is it reasonable 200+ witnesses decline all their payouts.

The second option is to just stick our heads in the sand (which is pretty much what everyone is doing right now) and ignore them.

Now it isn't my place to speak for all the witnesses, but I'm pretty sure it is clear #1 isn't going to work.

The second option is up to you, as a community we need to decide if this is something we are ok with. What I believe @haejin fails to realize, is the reward pool is shared with everyone here on Steemit. I honestly can't vouch for how good his content is, from a quick glance it is a few charts and 10-20 words of text that is being upvoted to almost $400 ten times a day.

Originally I wanted to look at his posts and see if it historically was accurate. The number of messages and abuse I received sidetracked that effort. I can't say if he is really the Crypto Genius they claim he is, or just the typical pump and dump posse. It is clear they are toxic, vindictive, and childish. If you took his 7K followers and added up their Steem Power, 98% of them would come out to less than 500 Steem Power combined.

The result of mentioning showing how much @haejin earns?



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@haejin , is there a reason you cannot do 1 post each day covering multiple coins as opposed to posting 4-10 posts? It doesn't appear that all your material is time sensitive, and if it is, it looks like you have SMS text messaging services for that. Seems like this would be a viable solution. People here are upset about your practices, but not sure I would take it personal if I were you. . Anyone who is exploiting the system would be treated the same way. You're not the first who has done these things and probably will not be the last. . .

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I prefer he do it coin by coin so I can ignore a lot of reading... Most analyst prepare their analysis in this way. I'm not sure I follow the problem, what is wrong with what he's doing? Is he doing something wrong, or just making too much doing something? I tried to read the post but it's going over my head for some reason, what am I missing?

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_FchZPoFmP_0igDxxZPwPAhiXjWxKN1Fh-5M25k2x9E/edit?hl=en&rm=minimal#gid=224399891 <----- This will help you monitor coin activity. I use it daily. Read my blog, and many of you questions will be answered. I am a buy and hold investor, while most people want to make a quick buck and ride the pump and dump- and usually end up with less than zero. Pay especially close attention to the new IRS tax regulations you will find in my blog. Read the white paper, and investigate the developers of each coin, before investing. haejin is a victim of his own success, long story short. http://www.cryptocurrencytrends.info/ He already has his own website, and the whale that funds him is smart enough to realize that Steemit NEEDS haejins content, as we are flooded with guitar pickinging, flower smelling, hippy poets, who think the world owes them upvotes. (Nothing against hippies or deadheads, btw) Hope I didnt sugarcoat that too much. Youre welcome.

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Wow thanks this is actually very helpfull :D

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the frist image of this article has a great concept. peace. thanks boro!

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THANKS FOR SHARING!

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what matters is that together we can take care of this great community and we will always be the majority to placate those who abuse the vote

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Thanks will do. Always looking for more information. Still hard to get coverage on some alt coins.

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Sounds like he's helping us out by bringing content and dollars to the community.

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Ok call me dumb...but other than the "public interest" column...why can't you just get this data from coinmarketcap.com? Or maybe the opportunities tab...but they didn't give a key to explain the little symbols. What am I missing here?

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You can get it from where ever you feel best suits your needs. Personally, I find the google spreadsheet much easier to navigate, as it displays which exchanges offer the specific coins you are intersted in purchasing. Not every exchange offers every coin. Read my blog, and you want have to ask so many questions, they will be answered when you read my research. your welcome.

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Awesome spreadsheet man

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I think his Content is very useful because i am new to Crypto and i can't do some TA by myself now. Because of his Post for Verge i made 2000 $ from 90 $ - I think that's awesome ! They are so many useless Post here on steemit that earns also a lot of money. Just my opinion. BTW these berniesanders bots just downvoted me because i like haejin's Content. This is ridiculous...

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"BTW these berniesanders bots just downvoted me because i like haejin's Content. This is ridiculous..."

Wow, if that happened, things are getting really bad.

Personally I think that if Steem Power is the measure of vote value, nobody should complain why someone is getting more from the rewards pool and why others get less.
My SP is My SP and I will spend it based on my subjective views.
Why don't we take a look at other Steemit posts where rewards are small, but these junk post combined are quite a lot in rewards.
If steemit is decentralized network, everybody has a right to upvote or downvote.
The balance will come just like in the economics - Demand and Supply create the equilibrium price.

Upvotes and Downvotes will create the equilibrium by itself. There is no need to declare a war or post long philosophical post about how @haejin or @randowhale or @anyone-else is acting.

All of the above is my subjective opinion and you may downvote it as well as upvote it.

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Wow, if that happened, things are getting really bad.

This has been happening for weeks, man. I'm not sure if @themarkymark is aware of this or not. This is basically tit-for-tat childish nonsense that bernie kicked off weeks ago. Both groups need to pull their fucking heads in and stop with the childish bullshit. Vote each others stuff into oblivion, but just stop with the collective punishment.

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Nothing would be better for us minnows than for the whales to flag each others VP to nothing every day.

We'd get more than $.02 payouts then.

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:)

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True that!

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What's a whale but someone who brings a disproportionate amount of attention to the platform? Minnows don't bring me here, whales do. If you want to be a whale, and get whale-sized payouts, bring whale-sized value in your content. Dragging everyone down just so you don't look so small (relatively speaking) just makes everyone lose. It's not like @Haejin is being accused of hacking the site surreptitiously. From what I can see, he's getting attacked because others are jealous of his massive appeal. This is the behavior of children. If you think better content needs to be produced, make it! Otherwise, don't complain when the payouts go to those who do!!

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"If you want to be a whale, and get whale-sized payouts, bring whale-sized value in your content."

TBQH, the content we post has little to do with our rewards. @haejin exemplifies this, particularly. If you exclude all votes from @ranchorelaxo from the debate, there is no more reason to debate whether @haejin's posts are problematic in any way.

This issue is about rewards distribution, not content.

Further you completely misunderstand my position. I don't seek to 'drag whales down'. I want them to profit MORE from their investments.

The price of Steem has rewarded whales more in the last week than all the self-votes they have cast in the last year.

I seek wider distribution of rewards not because I even care about my personal rewards, but because that will cause Steemit to grow, and create price pressure on Steem upwards, producing capital gains for whales.

I want Steemit to become more than a rewards pool mining algorithm. The mechanism of rewarding content creators on a social media platform has the potential to topple tyrannical banksters, and produce a new libertarian model of democratic governance all over the world.

That's really my goal.

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You have to scroll down a bit:

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@haejin/haejin-exceeds-10-000-followers-this-proves-people-follow-for-good-content-not-bad-content#@dalexx/re-haejin-haejin-exceeds-10-000-followers-this-proves-people-follow-for-good-content-not-bad-content-20180102t200816458z

dalexx (31) · 3 hours ago

You are my Daily Ritual and my Morning Routine since 4 Months.
Thanks for sharing your TA + Knowledge @haejin !

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$0.00

14 votes

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"nobody should complain why someone is getting more from the rewards pool and why others get less."

The whales care, because they're getting $500/post. 5% of $500 is $25.

That's more than you're gonna make this month in payouts. That's what @haejin is costing them each time they post.

Median payout is $.02. 5% of nothing is.... nothing.

We don't care. He's hitting them in the wallet, and they want all the money.

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Now this is something I agree with. Upvotes and downvotes willl create the equilibrium for it self. If someone decide to buy steem and steem power, he has the right to use it as he deem fit. If proper calculations have been made in the creating of this platform, everything will always balance out.

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I agree with you @dahlsom most of the thing this post i can't understand too. Whatever @haejin maybe running inhouse group upvoting with like steemian who have 100% voting power. If once have huge steemPower and 100% worth for 1 vote value $100 then 10 vote can make $1000 very possibly. The matter is if they doing anything illegale obviously he should got stuck from steemit board or disable by stuff. Do you think @rawdawg steemit team help him to do this?

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Why would he do this @rawdawg? He's working within the rules to maximise his profit. Why earn $2,000 per day when he can earn $20,000. There is no incentive for him to do this. We operate in an anarchic ecosystem where people can do whatever they like as long as they are comfortable with the results that flow from the algorithm. I would suggest that @haejin is very comfortable with his outcomes currently.

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Does his daily whining indicate his high comfort level to you?

There is also no incentive for people to stop flagging him at this point ... cuz ... they're "working within the rules to minimize his profit". ;)

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Arguably, using the flag to flag content that is valid and not "abuse" isn't "within the rules". Especially if witnesses are doing it.

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How do you feel about @haejin removing all post rewards from the Largest Cryptocurrency Freeroll Poker Site in the World which is funded by posts on the Steem blockchain?

haejin just killed one of the largest and most successful Steemit communities and yet, no outcry from his 7,000 followers.



Why? Because we did not agree with his large daily sum of the reward pool and were simply trying to protect our and other projects who do contribute positively to the Steemit Community and who do help support other legitimate projects within the Community and who are TRUE #community-builders and not destroyers like @haejin's recent actions make him appear to be.

I am a cryptocurrency trader, I see no value in his post for me personally. If my downvotes on some of his overly rewarded post cost him $1 each, @haejin should realize all that happened with my flag was he donated a tiny portion of $1 to every other Steemian that posted that day.

But for @haejin to then turn around and take ALL of the Steem Poker Leagues post payouts for simply trying to return $1 back to the Steemit Community as a whole, then I guess ...

haejin is showing everyone on Steemit what kind of person he really is.


IMHO, @haejin is a very selfish person to think that each of his post deserves more than an entire projects weekly rewards.

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His one post makes more then I did in 1000 hours of being on steem . Pretty sad

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I am powering down because of it. Tired of wasting time, I am going to take my 200 steem and go home

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How did he "remove" them?

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And if this is a platform flaw... shouldn't a platform fix be the solution?

Seems like a simple adjustment to set a maximum on the amount of the reward pool any one person could pull.

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I think your comments are a symptom of his supporters not understanding how Steem/Steemit work. ;)

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Keep in mind, I'd never even heard of this guy until I saw this post. Now I try to snipe an upvote in before he does, so his self-vote will pay me nicely. Glad the OP made this tip thread.

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Actually, I know @secondstar personally. He's cool.

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They don't care because he makes them money. If U make ppl money ppl will follow and reward u and u can do what u accuse him of.

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@haejin is a profit-maniac tsunami. He is the living embodiment of greed!

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I disagree, he shares his data with everyone, even those who downvote his posts. He has helped people break the cycle of poverty and pay off their mortgages and add much needed revenue. Thats why he is so well liked. His investment strategies and methods are 90% accurate. This is why the whale is defending him, as having his content on this platform adds actual monetary value for those new to the world of crypto. Many are simply jealous of his success and his ability to forecast trends in the altcoin market, plain and simple. If you want to earn more money or altcoin or increase your investment portfolio- just listen to his advice- it will cost you nothing but a few minutes to read his posts- if they havent been flagged by wall street backed, self appointed "bitcoin gurus" with no prior track record, who charge over $2,500 to name a few altcoins.

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I disagree, he shares his data with everyone, even those who downvote his posts.

I can point you to some reputable sites outside Steemit which basically do the same alt-coin forecast for free without the need to rape the Steem rewards. How does that sound?

His investment strategies and methods are 90% accurate.

Well, my prediction was 95% accurate when it comes to alts without using those silly charts. My money multiplies itself without having to use drawing boards.

This is why the whale is defending him, as having his content on this platform adds actual monetary value for those new to the world of crypto.

As far as I know @haejin is the same person behind that so-called whale constantly up-voting his BS.

If you want to earn more money or alt-coin or increase your investment portfolio- just listen to his advice- it will cost you nothing but a few minutes to read his posts

Try investing without any capital and let's see how it goes. On the contrary, imagine the Steem blockchain is now dead due to his constant maniacal act and you will see the difference.

You seem to have profited much because of his divine revelations, as an act of gratitude why not you guys offer your cult master some cryptocurrency tips?

I'm sure you read his spam footer begging for donations.

This is what happens when investing becomes more like a religion. I wouldn't be surprised if his followers are also a bunch of religious morons.

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The number one reason to flag content is disagreement on rewards. Below are the listed reasons for flagging. Click on the flag and you will see for yourself. Thanks,

Flagging a post can remove rewards and make this material less visible. Some common reasons to flag

Disagreement on rewards
Fraud or Plagiarism
Hate Speech or Internet Trolling
Intentional miss-categorized content or Spam

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I see that. Have to say I disagree with lumping a simple "downvote" in with a "flag".... they're two very different things.

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Actually, they aren't

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In most platforms, they are. Flagging a thing is flagging it... usually some sort of inappropriate content/spam/kiddie porn/racism/threats/etc. The idea of flagging is it raises awareness on a method of filtering content. Be it a manual admin, or an automated system like we have here where it actually hides the content from people/feeds/etc.

A downvote is "I didn't like your content or have a differing opinion." Not "your content is abusive and should be removed."

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In the white paper disagreement on rewards isn't even mentioned

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I concord with you dear

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Why earn $2,000 per day when he can earn $20,000

You can shear a sheep many times, but skin it only one - Amarillo Slim

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oh no please leave the sheep alone!

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I was asking @haejin to answer. Do you have the authority to speak for the man. The preservation of Steem as a community is most sustainable if everyone works together for the benefit of all. Just like a real community without a governing body would operate. This is a lofty goal as personal rewards are involved and human nature is to be greedy for ones own personal gain so maybe the experiment will fail. It most certainly would fail if 50-100 more people were behaving in this manner.

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Well, if everyone is gonna share nice, then this should change, right?authorrewardchart.png

All for one, one for all!

Well, not according to rewards.

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Where's Waldo... err Uh I mean haejin?

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it s already hard enough to find a chart on a specific coin he put out 10 days ago it would be near impossible if everything was under one post each day.

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It would be easier. Go to the post from 10 days ago, look for that coin. All in one post. Let your browser do that search. As long as steemit has no working search function

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From anarchy to a community of anarchists with a leader who is also an anarchist haha.

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I was not answering for him. I don’t even know him. I was simply posing a question in response to your comment.

In response to the additional point you raised, this is exactly how a community without a governing body would operate. It’s called anarchism. The idealised society that wish to create doesn’t exist. Steemit is proof of that.

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It’s true! If we all behave this way, will the people currently doing it still feel it’s justifies?

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Personally I like this option of combining multiple coins in a single post. Also I think that perhaps that perhaps the name calling from BS actually made things much worse than it ever had to be. Attacking the actual real users that have benefited form Haejin, myself included only poured fuel on an already out of control fire.

I don't like the bots, not even the upvote bots that I in fact used in the beginning but soon realized the folly in doing so. I don't care to see such abusive sexual language in BS post or his army of Bernie bot's post either. I do hope that as STEEMit comes out of BETA that an algorithm is found that can work this rewards pool crap out. But we do need to all keep in mind THIS IS A BETA. What we are experiencing is in fact how production software gets fine tuned.

Look I hate nothing more than I hate censorship. Flagging a post into oblivion and its rewards is not the answer. Perhaps flagging it down to what was a "presumed" reasonable amount prior to ranchorelaxo boosting his earnings too far would be more acceptsble as we weave through the endless beta releases. However I think that the abusive name calling, flaming and flagging from BS came before anyone even attempted to say, "hey can we address this CIVILLY", was ever offered.

Perhaps if we could all get on discord one day and have a civil discussion about this in the community we would have a solution we could offer the witnesses and developers for Steemit Final.

In the end the generals all have the power to tamp this down and cut out the abusive name calling.
But we all need to keep in mind, BETA! For now we are all STEEMit Guinea pigs and the rewards system was not setup by Haejin nor his thousands of followers that may in fact be a few bots but looking at his YouTube following of 19,000 one can be assured that the majority of his 10k+ Steemit following are real people that are seeing real benefits to his Elliot Wave readings.

And just a note... I am the one that is providing the SMS service.
Seems that also got me flagged

Just my two STEEMS Worth.Steemerica_mini.JPG Steemerica_mini.JPG

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because he is greedy. It like those youtubers that post 4 or 5 videos a day when they could just do it all in one

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Why do you even care? I'm not gonna spend much time figuring out your average payout, but a quick glance shows that the rewards on this comment are probably in the ballpark. If @haejin is taking 5% of the rewards pool, that will affect you to the tune of $.35 per payout.

Doesn't matter at all to you financially. When you consider the median payout is $.02, it matters a hell of a lot less to almost everyone on the platform - except for the 1500 dolphins, orca, and whales, who get 99% of rewards. The rest of us split 1%.

Why should we care?

I dont understand why you attack him. He started iff with no votes and kept writing and posten daily post. All of which are valuable.

As a result he gets followers and upvotes.

If you dont like it, compete with him ans his content instead of attacking users that actually create value.

There is so much bs going on here attack those guys. What about vote buying and people selfvoting like gumpy cat etc.

Why do attack someone that actually creates balue for the platform.

Show me one user that brought more new users to ateem than him lately and put in more work.

He posts several videos a day and 10ish types post all self made and all valuable.

Just leave him be.

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That said i value your effort and love for steem and so i follow you!

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I didn't attack anyone.

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This is a great comment and is the heart of what matters, for me at least. @haejin has not changed one bit since he started posting on this community months ago. He was persistent, put out great quality content and for months made pennies for his posts. This is exactly the kind of advice that you'll find our community doling out to new minnows. His posts were not just a single graph and a paragraph of text they were often a good long video as well where he shared his knowledge and approach to TA. To top it at all off those posts ended up being spot on most of the time and made a lot of people a lot of money and brought him even more viewers from outside the platform. Again, this is exactly what Steem and the community always want.

I watched as his followers grew and more importantly the number of views on his posts grew. His upvote to view ratio was way off because he was attracting a ton of outside views to the platform (and still is). That is exactly the kind of high quality content that Steemit is designed to attract and wants. Then one day a whale starts giving him all of his votes and suddenly all hell breaks loose.

To me this is just another reflection of a fundamental tension that exists at the heart of this experiment where the system itself is promoting and incentivizing something and when that something is actually achieved and is not in line with what some parts of the community want the end result is pretty nasty.

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The whale realizes that haejin is an asset to steemit, thats why hes paying to keep him around. haejin has his own website and doesnt need steemit- steemit needs him. http://www.cryptocurrencytrends.info/

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Geronimo downvoted me. Hes only following 16 people, yet has 288 following him. And hes all whiny stompy foot that his life blog posts dont reap the same rewards as a finanacial expert who has paid off people mortgages- aka haejin. You big crybaby. Have an issue- heres a tissue- try following more people, greedy brat.

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Let's slow the roll right there. Steemit doesn't need haejin. It was rolling along just fine before him. Did he bring new users to the site? yes. Would steemit have been just fine had he never shown up? Also yes.

With an n^2 reward curve, there would be an incentive to vote for the same content others have voted on.

Bidbots and all that other cancer would be much less lucrative.

edit: selfvote because 'linear rewards' are a mistake.

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Sorry, but in this particular situation, that diagnosis is wrong. n^2 helps prevent posts and comments that receive a low amount of upvotes from receiving high rewards. When users are upvoting to the degree that is happening here, n^2 would actually make it worse. The abusive votes would actually be worth more under n^2.

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I totally agree on that. But changing the curation rewards to 40% will help create incentive to curate. At the end of the day, some things simply can't be done by bots and requires human input. That's why we need strong communities backed by steem inc's sp.

I heard you are a supporting the flag rewards program. Thanks for that.

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There is a believe that paying more for curation is going to incentivize better curation. While I am sure there are some people that will be more incentivized by an additional 15%, I suspect that the vast majority of curators will still perform what I call "lazy curation", where their voting is not really adding a lot of value towards the discovery of quality content.

I think that the addition of communities will really help with the content discovery process, because users will be able to consume content that is more tailored to their individual interests. When SMTs are added on top of that, and communities can run their own "mini STEEM economy" around their individual tokens, I think we will see some really awesome outcomes, and the platform will really start to take off.

I heard you are a supporting the flag rewards program. Thanks for that.

Yes, it sounded like a really smart approach to try and incentivize responsible downvoting. I hope it does well :)

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The abusive votes would actually be worth more under n^2.

Sorry, but that is only true if you isolate these posts from the rest of the rewardpool.

Under n^2 other posts with more r_shares would get much higher rewards, making it more profitable to combine r_shares.
This would create incentives for a curation process - just like intended in the original whitepaper.

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The rewards that were distributed prior to the hardfork can be used as a base point. There was a certain threshold, I can’t remember what it was (guesstimate around $50) where the posts above it made less, and the posts below it made more when we switched to linear rewards.

For users who have more SP than that threshold, their vote is worth more under n^2 than linear.

The threshold does change of course as the price of STEEM goes up, and it also does fluctuate based on the voting behavior of all the users.

Regardless of the specific place the threshold exists at though, there will be users with enough SP to be above it, and for those users their votes add more under n^2 than under linear rewards.

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Regardless of the specific place the threshold exists at though, there will be users with enough SP to be above it, and for those users their votes add more under n^2 than under linear rewards.

I should have probably been a bit more precise with my original reply.

Under n ranchorelaxo has absolutely no incentive to vote for anything other than himself or his buddy haejin; His influence on the reward pool is always the same.

Under n^2, if he only voted for his buddy ( and nobody else voted for him - which is pretty much the case ) then he would have less influence on the reward pool than he has now.

Sidenote: Before hf 19 he would have to vote for 40 comments, making your threshold totally inaccurate.

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Either we are talking about different things or your math is wrong.

If we are just talking about the amount of rewards that a single user with his level of SP can reward to himself or his friends with his vote alone (no other significant votes) then he has more power under n^2.

You are right, 40 to 10 did change things. Even if you rolled back both changes though, he would still be able to extract more with 40 n^2 votes spread across 40 posts/comments than he can today with the 10 using linear.

I understand the argument of n^2. Under any system with moderately even distribution of stake, you are right about n^2, and it is a perfect system to combat this type of abuse. The problem is that with the distribution of STEEM, there is such a distance between the larger stakeholders and everyone else, that individual stakeholders can with their single vote essentially reach the tipping point or critical mass at which point their vote squared significantly surpasses the votes of a majority of the other voters and actually pulls more rewards, even though it is technically just ‘one vote’.

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We are talking about the same thing and my math is alright.

There are simply too many parameters to give you any example numbers.
Did you not notice, how selfvoting only became a massive problem after hf19 ?

You are right, 40 to 10 did change things. Even if you rolled back both changes though, he would still be able to extract more with 40 n^2 votes spread across 40 posts/comments than he can today with the 10 using linear.

Even with the disproportional distribution STEEM has, this is not necessarily true.

First of all: If any other post had twice the votes, it would get 4 times the shares in rewards.

The effect of flags would change significantly, too.

A shareholder with half the SP could 'steal' more than half the payout of those abusive posts.

It would also have some indirect effects; As it would influence voting behavior.

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There has been a dramatic increase in self voting since Hf 19. For the average user (even someone such as myself with a decently large amount of SP) our votes are worth more under linear rewards. For those of us on our end of the spectrum (most users) who want to use their voting power to reward themselves, self voting is more profitable under linear rewards when compared to n^2. That is why we have seen such an increase since the switch to linear rewards. I agree with you on that.

In the interest of not just repeating the same arguments over and over, since you don’t seem to agree with my point, maybe let’s just end with the above statement - since I know on that at least, we agree.

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Here are how rewards were distributed just prior to HF19.

authorrewardchart.png

I don't think n^2 is gonnna fix things. It has actually probably not got worse with linear rewards, but I've not seen a more recent version of this chart, so couldn't prove it.

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Sadly, it is impossible to compare any data, since hf 19 brought a whole host of changes.

  • n
  • vote weights changed
  • a lot of whales changed their voting patterns simultaneously.
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I'd bet rewards distributions are practically indistinguishable.

Most of the Steem is still all of the power.

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We said we would continue to collect ideas ... I would be curious what you are thinking about my newest one? (That's no call for an upvote: if you don't like it, just don't upvote it - I am interested in opinions.)

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It would allow users who are exploiting the system by creating junk posts and upvoting for a ton of money because they own the account to extract a lot of money from the rewards pool.

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Why? My idea was a reward curve which starts as n^2 and then later becomes linear (as explained in my article). That means at least one couldn't exploit it more easily than one could exploit n^2. It would combine the advantages of n^2 (flat start) with linear (no extreme rewards).

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I’m not a blockchain dev, but I don’t think that could be implemented as a consensus operation because it is too expensive of a computation to have to perform on every vote.

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I am not so sure if computation would be that expensive ... There had to be 'only' a vote counter to switch to a linear equation after a certain number of upvotes per post ... (OK, maybe a few other things as well ...)

You might be right that there wouldn't be any consensus (or maybe also straight rejection of the idea), but on the other side it won't cause much harm to discuss it for some minutes. ;-)

By the way I also wouldn't be angry at all if some of you busy witnesses (hey I voted for 30 of you, isn't that great!) would comment ideas like this one directly under my articles from time to time. :) (At least @felixxx did ...)

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There are a lot of discussions on the topic. I'll keep the idea in mind, and bring it up if it seems appropriate.

If you have ideas that you want me to check out, feel free to send me a link on steemit.chat. As long as they are serious proposals and you aren't just link spamming me, I'm fine with you sending links :)

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Could you dumb it down a bit more? This sounds like it could be something great but hard to tell what you explicitly mean.

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thanks, reading now!

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#MeToo... thanks, reading now!

I don't understand why witnesses are brought into this. We have nothing to do with this situation. If some witnesses are involved in bidbots, that doesn't mean the rest of the witnesses should be dragged into this mess.

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Because I'm a witness, I am the primary target and they are following mob mentality.

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Honestly, I think the point was not really to have witnesses give up rewards. The point was to present fake options to look reasonable, but making sure only the desired option was possible.

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Oh, I think he was serious, from the conversations I've had they see it as him vs witnesses.

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Well that's not how things work. They need to understand that.

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I'd like to refer you again to the key phrase, "Mob mentality."

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I call it sheepling mentality.

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some sheep are better than others bhaa bhaa ;-)

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There are many targets on both sides.

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I can see the logic, even though it's flawed, and I'm sure you can too. Witnesses are like politicians and one way of looking at that leads you to expect them to lead by example and have exemplary conduct.

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Like the best moment to take good

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There is no logic. If there are a few bad apples, doesn't mean the whole basket is rotten. Besides, those flag and flame wars are between a few individuals, not people vs witnesses.

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But when any of those people ARE witnesses, they then are representatives of the platform... in a sense. As such, it's the platform and all of it's other representatives, who people feel they're being targeted by.

Steem may encounter troubles rolling out SMT adoption as per the white paper if a business entity discovers that it’s audience can basically run the system. In specific, this is around the meta-economics game going on around what is being talked about at the moment. The flag war.

With regards to Haejin’s content, I swung by to check it out. It’s consistent, well formatted and the audience are really receptive to it with a lot of engagement. I don’t think it is my place to judge really in terms of worth. Crypto forecasting isn’t really my bag, but, on the flip, is listening to me sitter on about electronic bleeps and bloops anyone elses? More than likely not. It’s all in the eye of the beholder and someone with a huge amount of weight is finding value there.

As such, Steemit is working as designed. It’s hands off free market stuff. The main thing here is the distribution of power in the free market is like the real world status quo, heavily weighted. Either Steemit will carry on as is or they will come in with management controls. I have a feeling that they will err towards the former as the tech world tends to come from an egalitarian mindset (even if the concept is fundamentally flawed). I do not envy the ethical decisions they may have to make if control measures are introduced.

For the time being, I’m continuing being Mr Minnow. More than anything, I just like having a platform to carve out a corner with some content, and I’m getting that opportunity here and it’s been really rewarding - on social, monetary and creativity fronts. I’m continuing to monitor what is going on as I’ve a keen interest and investment in the platform. My main hope is that the big names in this can work it out between them without resorting to the flag penalties on both sides. It’s a shame when you see the leading figures of the site going at each other when there is such a current of positivity and hope in the main.

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As such, Steemit is working as designed. It’s hands off free market stuff.

Wouldn't that be nice. But the self voting kind of ruins the analogy, plus the fact that we have a shared reward pool which gives everyone an interest in large, consistent, regular voting patterns (which suggest farm voting) especially when they are self votes.

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Yeah, and it's probably not in the eye of the major investors right now. There is a lot of dumb money going into STEEM right now. Not because STEEM is dumb, because there's dumb money going into every single crypto in existence. If investors at large were to discover that people are regularly cashing out tens of thousands per day with nothing but spam BS, people would be stampeding to pull their money out.

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Market forces are whats running it. Im guessing your being sarcastic.

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If investors at large were to discover that people are regularly cashing out tens of thousands per day with nothing but spam BS, people would be stampeding to pull their money out.

Do you think so? I'm not so sure. I think those with a lot invested are actually incentivized to normalize that as they too tend to self reward and cash out from time to time.

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I mean there are people who load tens of thousands on bittrex or binance and sort of indiscriminantly buy altcoins in the 20-50 list because they're low cap, and have the ability to really explode in value. Some of them really are crap coins, but the ones that are legit will explode and the gains make up for the loss of the bad coins. STEEM likely has a lot of investors that have never even created an account on the platform.

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A lot of the money pouring into crypto is smart money - money that is going to take over those currencies.

Money that can then crash it anytime they want, and buy it back cheap, by causing panics.

Real money, in other words.

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Right, I just mean there are a lot of people that are buying coins that they know absolutely nothing about. They'll see a comment on reddit or see how low the market cap is, see it pump and just buy it based on that. I would wager there is a not-insignificant amount of STEEM holders that aren't even aware of the social media aspect of it.

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I don't think that dumb money is the bulk of investments in crypto. It's impossible to tell.

The inflation oncoming is a damn good reason to avoid dollars, and even dumb investments in other currencies are at least smart to get out of dollars.

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Is there a solution? It seems to me that @haejin is simply working the system as it exists. If there's a weakness in that system, it's not his fault. I have no special opinion regarding the quality of his content (I haven't gone to take a look at it yet), but the votes it's getting don't break the rules as such, do they?

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It's quite impossible to break the rules as far as I know, so you are correct. This is because at the basic level code is law.

However that does not mean we have to accept what happens, and to facilitate that disagreement we have our words and our flags.

This however may not be working and the code as law may need to be changed. Time will tell.

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In anarchy, nothing can be shared equally. Just like a pack of lions killing a weak gazelle, The dominant lion gets the most meat, the rest are left with scraps. Do away with the reward "POOL"- the term reeks of MLM Amway type shit. If you want your posts to be higher, spend some $ on buying some steem and use it to increase your posting power. The problem people arent understanding is- people are voting for haejin because he makes them money. LOTS of money. The "artists" think their post is undervalued- so they downvote everyone around them. COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. People come to steemit thinking "FREE PAYDAY" --- wrong. Come here and start giving, then you will get noticed and start recieving. Check my blog for some tax information on cryptos- no one has given me anything, but I such is life. I put it out there to HELP.

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In anarchy, nothing can be shared equally.

No system shares equally. We have to ask what it is we're sharing and whether or not sharing equally is even the goal.

Steemit does not in any way attempt to share equally. What is being shared out is a crypto asset which is created out of thin air, but which has utility in the system (gives you more voting power if powered up), which some people are willing to treat as money (in exchange for goods and services) and exchange for other assets.

Because it's created out of nothing, comparisons to what other national governments (even imagined ones) systems do is confused.

Come here and start giving, then you will get noticed and start recieving.

Sure, I agree. But that's not related to the problem. The problem here is that if you piss off some nasty rich people you can find yourself voted against in retaliation. This is obviously unfair.

So what's the solution to that? Keep your mouth shut? Just roll with it? Give up and leave?

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BUY STEEM. THE SERVERS DONT RUN ON FAIRY DUST PEOPLE!! Steemit isnt run out of someones mothers basement. Its a business that operates without advertising. Who pays for the serveres, electricity, climate control, technical support? Elves? fairys? The Great Pumpkin from Charlie Brown? Somebody clue me in, Im all ears.

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Its called the MUTE button.

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Muting someone and burying your head in the sand doesn't negate a flag.

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It gets rid of people you dont want to associate with. Much like blocking telemarkets. See it in action.

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Oh I agree. It effects everybody, and I personally think there’s got to be some sort of management in there. You can’t just let market forces run things alone.

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Especially when you end up with a bunch of self-appointed hall monitors who bought their way to the "top" of the power structure.

Each one, telling you the self interest their working on is for the greater community good..

Haven't we had enough of that across governments?

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Sure. Now lets see you pay for the bandwidth, servers, electricity and technical support and other costs neccesary to keep this site up. Remember BITPETITE?

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So much for "distributed".

And the witnesses aren't exactly in it to lose money... Lol. They're making plenty.

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"... self-appointed hall monitors who bought mined their way to the "top"

FTFY

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Quoting someone incorrectly ... That's a-paddlin'. I'm going to have a word with the hall monitors.

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Promises, promises... =p

I've been a baaaaaaad boy. Make me hurt real good!

XD

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if a business entity discovers that it’s audience can basically run the system

#decentralized

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Or the business finds that only a few in its costomer base own enough of the companies stocks to run the show the way they see fit..and the stock holders are blinded by greed and run the company into the ground for short term profits....

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Lack of faith in the people running the biz will do that.

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Yeah, the only way SMTs will work is if they disallow whales.

Let me go one step further: The only way Steemit will work is if they disallow whales.

Oh...

P.S. This isn't just a "free market," this is the dystopian look at free market. This is why most free markets need some moderation to actually work.

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Or we need to organize to combat this behavior anarchically instead of appealing to authorities. I think communication is a major part, and fighting censorship on the platform from bad actors/abusers. It is really a case study in anarchic conflict management, how do we police our open commons from abuses, while following the ethics of anarchism?

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The problem is, the only communication that helps is communicating with whales that listen to try to stop this. I could gather together 10,000 people like myself and convince them all to give up all profit they can make and spend their lives flagging abusers all day (I couldn't actually even get close to doing this do this) and our collective downvotes could knock $100 off the rewards on one of haejins four posts. Even then, he's just the beginning. At least he isn't actual spam like most of what the bid bots upvote. Conflict management doesn't work very well when there are power differentials that are in severe excess of what you're likely to ever encounter in the real world.

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You are right, this is a laboratory for what is going on Inc the wider world of fiat money. Very interesting game: how to keep people with power from being assholes!

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The only way to become a person with power is to be an ASSHOLE. Nice, ethical people always lose. Read machaveli work.

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I'd like to point out that the inverse of your example is also true. @haejin's rewards don't matter to minnows. Media payout is $.02, and @haejin is taking, at worst, 5% of the rewards pool.

He's impacting $.02 by 5%.

5% of nothing is.. carry the zero... ummm.... nothing. Still nothing.

It doesn't matter one bit to minnows which whales are taking 99% of the rewards.

No matter what, 50k minnows share 1% of rewards.

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I think the problem is that the market is already centralized, and on this platform, market-power is almost the entirety of power.

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There are no rules or ethics in ANARCHY. Thats why its called ANARCHY. lol.

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I disagree. Anarchy can only exist with ethics and voluntarily agreed upon codes of conduct. Otherwise, anarchy dissolved into despotism, which requires additional revolutions to undo.

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The definition of ANARCHY is having no rules. Once you have rules, its no longer ANARCHY.

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That's not true, no rules mean chaos. If you research anarchy it is basically a small governing body where everyone has a right to vote. I read, and I can't remember who wrote this, true democracy is anarchy. We can have an equal vote on what rules to follow and apply this to our community.

Right. now huge investors have a large vote compared to others here on steemit. That is not anarchy, it's a Plutocracy. That's taken from what I've studied a little bit, I am not an expert on these issues.

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Has it ever occured to you people that this site MIGHT just be an elaborate social experement on human behaviour in a non advertising platform? Contemplate this.

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Thank you! Yes and Inc so curious how anarchy can solve from Plutarchy dilemma!

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anarchy means no rulers. not no rules.

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Just stating this again does not make it true.

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Without rulers- who enforces the rules? why have rules, if you beleieve so much in anarchy?

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Dont worry, dandelion, the effects from the mushrooms will wear off in a few hours, and you might be able to understand who pays for the servers and bandwidth and other costs of keeping a web platform like this operating. Its not trolls, fairies or magical unicorns. ITS WHALES.

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Let's do a little thought experiment!

Whales invest in Steemit for profits. We can see from BTC in the last 6 months that the best way to profit from investment is capital gains. If you'd bought BTC in May at $1k, and sold at $20k, you'd have made 20 times your money.

Whales on Steemit aren't getting that from mining the rewards pool, but they are managing to keep retention down to ~10%.

Steemit is how the market for Steem is grown, it's special use case. By doing things that will retain users on Steemit, the market for Steem will grow, and upwards price pressure will apply to Steem.

Capital gains for investors will be the result.

However, driving 90% of users off the platform YOY will cause the price to stagnate, and eventually go to zero.

Then investors will have all the Steem, and it will be worthless.

authorrewardchart.png

This matters.

@haejin doesn't.

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Hahaha and whales can be trolls or faeries, benefactors or abusers. It’s up to them, and everyone else, to discover way too move thru this territory.

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Without steemit's content creators there would be no steemit....so let the big investors pay for the overhead when no one wants to use it anymore.

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