RE: Steem's Value vs Newbies's Resources Credits (RC)
Dear @juanmolina and @everyone else
 | Excellent choice of topic. I strongly believe that we're dealing with a huge and serious problem here. |
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Just the other day I had a pleasure to "talk" with @the4thmusketeer about similar topic and I shared with him my similar concerns.
Even in current stage (price of STEEM is hardly worth anything) many people out are limited with very strict resource credit level. IF price of steem would grow even to 2 usd, then most new people would abandon this platform.
EXAMPLE:
Let me give you guys an excellent example, which should allow you to understand problem better:
Imagine that you've heard about new social media platform calleed www.Tyson.com (catchy name, right? :). You're signing up. Which takes time. After few days of waiting for approval of your new account finally you can test this platform.
You waited so long and you're already a bit frustrated. But regardless you decided to give Tyson.com another chance. You wrote few comments, you even upvoted few people. And then for the first time you're learning that you've used all resource credits.
And then you come to realization that it is pointless to look for any information about RC on www.Tycon.com. The only way to know your current level is to use some additional page like www.TysonD.com. How crazy is that?
So finally being annoyed with this new site, you're learning that you used all your resource credits within just several comments and now you need to wait pretty much 5 days to recharge RC. Or you need to purchase 50-100 STEEM and power up.
WOULD YOU DO THAT? Anyone ?
Would you buy 50 STEEM knowing that it will cost you 200 usd? Just to be able to write several comments a day on new platform, which you just discovered?
I hardly doubts so.
CONCLUSION:
 | I strongly believe that if current RC system will not be IMPROVED then within growth of price of STEEM we will experience absolute DEATH of this platform (zero new users, except of those who are really wealthy). |
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This is problem that most people do not seem to be aware and it's a great time to start talking about possible solutions. Great post @juanmolina
And I would love to hear your opinion. Is there a real problem ahead of us or am I being delusional?
Yours
Piotr
Communities. I think the era of cold signups to Steem will end and people will sign up via a community or dApp. Why this is good is because the community provides social stickability and onboarding of the new users - including supporting them via delegations and upvotes.
Though, RCs are meant to provide a minimum amount of activity for any sized account. Witnesses can control RC costs for different kinds of transactions so they have some control over who much a redfish account can do.
Dear @eturnerx
Thank you for accepting my invitation to Juan publication and for sharing your thoughts. We're received more comments than I ever expected and reading it all will take me some time :)
I'm not sure if I ever mentioned (probably I did) but I'm helping group of friends win 1st place in small contest. Is there any chance you could help out and open this link to dpoll?
https://dpoll.xyz/detail/@theycallmedan/which-steem-project-should-i-delegate-20k-steempower-to-for-1-year/?rep=33&sp=3&age=30&post_count=10&stake_based=0
And drop a vote on SteemChurch.
I would absolutely appreciate it.
Yours
Piotr
Thanks fo rdirecting me here, Piotr.
I've thought about this quite a bit, especially as someone who came into Steemit with absolutely nothing and is still struggling to hold on to what I've made. And I've come to the conclusion that there really isn't any good option, to talk less of a perfect one. At least not right now. Even if RCs were not an issue, Steem power would be for new users. Yeah, delegation is great, but lets face it--even at 1 STEEM to 4 USD, it's value isn't great. There are only two things that can keep a new user happy and those are interesting interactions and (as much as it pains me to say), financial gain. We all know those are almost impossible to come by for the newbie without a sponsor or community. And if the payout algorithms are modified to give massive payouts, the steem economy will almost certainly crash.
These opinions are formed from my admittedly very limited persective, anyway. I believe if we keep thinking together as a community, we will one day stumble on a great solution to all these.
I think the idea of future potential gain is still intriguing and understanding that will take time is understood.
Dear @petermarie
I only had a chance to read your old comment just now. I appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts with us.
ps.
I didn't hear from you in a while. Hope you're okey there?
Enjoy your weekend,
Piotr
Hey Piotr,
Yeah, I'm fine, thanks for asking. Just been super busy on my offline day job. Will be fully back soon, but for now, seems I only come on the blockchain to check out your memos. Keep them coming!
Peter Marie
Hello Peter,
Like you, I started with nothing and worked my way up to earning approximately 800 Steem, then bought some when the price fell below $1. I've been trying all sorts of ways to get a group of people who believe in Steem to stick together and actually support each other the way a small community would do. Even after buying Steem and powering up, I'm finding that people are not willing to do the slow grind and would rather chase after the chance that they might catch a whale vote and instantly get rich. I can tell you that you won't get rich with one whale vote! It takes a constant supply of whale votes to get rich. However, if enough small accounts support a dolphin account, that dolphin account can help the smaller accounts grow while they also help each other. One of these days I should calculate how much I've helped others with my little votes and give-aways. If you want daily votes from me, come play my games. Have some fun and grow your account at the same time. It takes just a few minutes each day and is MUCH easier than writing big articles.
I think you got the point @crypto.piotr. Current process of registration and the beginning on this platform is to be honest terrible. Also, current introduceyourself posts with the maximal payout of $0.5 are not very encouraging. I remember, when I started my journey here, I got the payout worth $4. I am aware that steemit is not only about payouts and determination of blogging should come from passion, but this factor is also crucial, especially at the beginning.
In life generally, who do not stick out will never stand out. You must be armed with the right knowledge through experience to overcome. At first, I was not cool with the Rc but that was something to start with. If steemit was a charitable platform, then we should expect steemit to be in charge of our growth here.
Steemit to me is just like life. Steemit is a reality. At the end, steemit is fairer than life as everyone gets equal startups.
When it comes to things like this, you need to prove that you can manage whatever you get out of life to get more. The rich getting richer are people that has and more will be given to them because they have proved themselves.
The way newbies learn about the Rc is frustrating and giving them more sp wouldn't change the learning process. It will never be enough because they have no knowledge that it should managed and used efficiently. But when they do learn, steemit makes a manager out of them.
Now I work hard and try to bring something good to the plate because I know how valuable an excess sp is, especially when I have been delegated some sp.
When it comes to Rc ,to the newbies, my advice is to prove yourself, stand out, be patient and be open-minded.
For the sign up fee, I believe steemit also set a waiting period to get an account free. This issue still boils to being patient.
Steemit has given us an opportunity to excel and life has given us an opportunity to live. So live and excel.
This should not be an entitlement or a privilege debate. Opportunities are mostly hardwork and I do not see steemit different.
This Rc, sp delegations and new account opening which could be free or with a fee, is perfect. This has made steemit to be a valuable platform. If it had not been like this, then it would have been something else.
I believe we all get support one way or the other and steemit has done it's part and it's left to us to support others.
My opinion. ..thanks for sharing and reading my comment.
:)
@juanmolina @crypto.piotr @everyone
Posted using Partiko Android
That sounds as if new users needed STEEM and had to fight to succeed here. Yes, who really fights, may succeed, but if not enough new users are willing to fight, this will result in a slow growth of the STEEM platform and thus, in my opinion, also in a slow increase of the STEEM price.
New DApps are really great, but without new users they appear like a very modern city full of spectacular buildings but ... without any inhabitants (apart from some robots and some lonely millionaires). :)
Therefore in my opinion STEEM needs new and satisfied users much more urgently than these potential users need STEEM ... they simply can go elsewhere if STEEM (if we) doesn't welcome them in a suitable way ...
Dear @jaki01
Thank you for accepting my invitation to Juan publication and for sharing your thoughts. We're received more comments than I ever expected and reading it all will take me some time :)
I'm not sure if I ever mentioned (probably I did) but I'm helping group of friends win 1st place in small contest. Is there any chance you could help out and open this link to dpoll?
https://dpoll.xyz/detail/@theycallmedan/which-steem-project-should-i-delegate-20k-steempower-to-for-1-year/?rep=33&sp=3&age=30&post_count=10&stake_based=0
And drop a vote on SteemChurch.
I would absolutely appreciate it.
Yours
Piotr
Very much agree to your point.
Too much SP as a start will only spoil them.
Best regards
Daily Bread Food Bank
That is a good point! Maybe having a bar on the right hand column showing how much you have so that as you interact you see it going down and when it runs out you understand what happened.
We need a new frontend
If this comment is even noticed in the crowd, for what it's worth I think a few of those problems could be helped by a more featured frontend. Data like RC and voting power should obviously be shown or at least accessible in a general purpose frontend, IMHO along with other things I find frustratingly absent from Steemit.com. I also think a quick tutorial window could go a long way, maybe even small tips that appear on startup or something. If the new user was explicitly told their limitations by the platform up front rather than by being surprised by them after taking uninformed, immutable action to squander resources I think the process may not be as frustrating and we might see higher retention rates.
A web page is no place for a Steem frontend, again IMHO. On the other hand people might not want to download a standalone application and it's dependencies.
High costs of account creation does seem like a problem to me that can't be addressed by that however. To play a touch of devil's advocate though, if the price of Steem were to increase I might expect the price of Bitcoin to have increased as well. With this simple reasoning it's more a matter of jumping the government currency ship before you go down with it, especially in the places with greater financial hardships.
I'm no economist though, don't forget.
Dear @a-non-e-moose
I only had a chance to read your old comment just now. I appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts with us.
One thing about me is that I usually wait few days and then read ALL comments. And I really appreciate yours.
Did you ever try SteemPeak.com? Just curious. I discovered it lately.
Why not? This is biggest value of Steemit for me. That it's in form of web page (partly because Steemit is SEO friendly now).
I could never understand what is causing cost of creating new account. Would you know?
And actually, who are you? What do you do ? Hope you dont mind me asking this question.
Enjoy your weekend,
Piotr
Agree, but there are already some decent Steem frontends out there which are much better than steemit (the interface) such as steempeak.com, busy.org or partiko.
Steempeak and busy are both webpages, and partiko's putting "posted on partiko" or whatever at the end of comments kind of puts me off. I'm sure there are even more out there, and Steemit isn't setting the bar too high.
None of them are a standalone application, and I want that for some inexplicable reason. By that want I'm driven to the abject madness of writing my own in java.
You could fork this project which is an editor which posts to the bitcoin blockchain. It is written in C++ and uses Python. There are plenty of APIs for connecting to Steem RPC servers and doing things on the Steem blockchain written for Python. I would like to see this 100% C++. I guess I need some encouragement. https://github.com/shawnpringle/steemedit
Yeah javascript and python both seem to really dominate in terms of stuff written for Steem. I have done a lot of study of bitcoin stuff for Sauna, my frontend project. I'm caught on quite the stubborn snag with trying to implement transaction signing right now. It doesn't help that this is far and away the most complicated cryptography I've dealt with yet.
It is making me learn all sorts of cool stuff though.
If you want to see more written C++ you should write it! Buidl and whatnot. Seems pretty fun to me :)
Dear @vikisecrets
I would like to thank you for accepting my invtation to Juan's post and for dropping by. Appreciate your reply.
We're received more comments than I ever expected and reading it all will take me some time :)
I'm not sure if I ever mentioned (probably I did) but I'm helping group of friends win 1st place in small contest. Is there any chance you could help out and open this link to dpoll?
https://dpoll.xyz/detail/@theycallmedan/which-steem-project-should-i-delegate-20k-steempower-to-for-1-year/?rep=33&sp=3&age=30&post_count=10&stake_based=0
And drop a vote on SteemChurch.
I would absolutely appreciate it.
Yours
Piotr
Dear @a-non-e-moose
Thank you for accepting my invitation to Juan publication and for sharing your thoughts. We're received more comments than I ever expected and reading it all will take me some time :)
I'm not sure if I ever mentioned (probably I did) but I'm helping group of friends win 1st place in small contest. Is there any chance you could help out and open this link to dpoll?
https://dpoll.xyz/detail/@theycallmedan/which-steem-project-should-i-delegate-20k-steempower-to-for-1-year/?rep=33&sp=3&age=30&post_count=10&stake_based=0
And drop a vote on SteemChurch.
I would absolutely appreciate it.
Yours
Piotr
Make an option to delegate RC and most of the issues discussed would be resolved. I don't even use up all my RC to begin with. In fact, most people with minnow stake (500SP and above) rarely use up their allotted resource credits.
Contributing an overflow of RC to a pool would probably be better.
@enforcer48 I would take it even one step further and create something like a Resource Credit Market in the style of the MinnowBooster delegation market. Even though I am fairly active, my RC balance rarely drops below 90% filled.
So, I'd go to the market and be able to drop some of my excess capacity onto people who need RCs. By making it low-cost/no-cost but still manual, people could exercise due diligence in giving their excess capacity to someone who seems to be genuinely trying, as opposed to spammers/bot farmers.
Not suggesting that would be a be-all-end-all, but it might start solving the issue.
=^..^=
Part of me feel like the market would be only useful for dapps. They might be the only buyers. This will also force them to find solution to their revenue streams.
It is unknown if people, especially new users, would be interested in paying for RC. Plenty of people would be willing to sell, that's for sure.
Without doubt, it can become complicated.
Terms: I agree to delegate you 25,000,000,000 RC's daily from my reserves. Lease expires automatically when your 'base' fully charged RC level reaches 50,000,000,000 (about 25-ish SP, I think). Using the "beneficiary" feature, at END of lease, I will be the beneficiary of 20% of your rewards until ______ (x amount) of SP has been paid as compensation for the delegation.
All the technical aspects would run in the background, programmed by the market maker. On the front end, all you see is the amount offered, the amount the triggers the end of the lease, and the "cost" of the lease via the "beneficaries" repayment. The "sellers" set the cost... and there would always be the "risk" that you get nothing because the borrower gives up, anyway. But the RCs were just going to waste anyway, so where's the loss?
Why have a "cost?" Simple psychology. People "value" something that has a price higher than something that's free... and so it would be a stimulant to encourage activity.
Just thinking out loud here...
=^..^=
Made sense to me.
Dear @enforcer48
Would you mind telling me more about your suggested solution?
Im failing to see how would it resolve problem of new user, who doesnt know much about this platform (which is new for him) and doesnt know anyone. and on top of that used his entire resource credits (he couldn't possibly know about RC at this stage). what this person have to do?
Please keep in mind, that this new user doesn't necessary yet understand what delegation and resource credits are about.
We're talking here about new users, who just signed up for the first time and they have not power up yet. Not about existing once, having over 500SP. Of course those people with 500SP will not suffer at all.
But majority of new users do not start with 500SP. Hope I managed to explain the issue?
Yours
Piotr
Just as Steemit Inc. delegates 15SP to new users, the same can be done with RC.
With RC delegations possible, dapp operators can delegate certain amount of RC to new users as well.
The details of overflow, pool, etc. can be fleshed out if it becomes a serious consideration. The point being, we need a way to give/loan RC.
Dear @enforcer48
I would like to thank you for accepting my invtation to Juan's post and for dropping by. Appreciate your reply.
We're received more comments than I ever expected and reading it all will take me some time :)
I'm not sure if I ever mentioned (probably I did) but I'm helping group of friends win 1st place in small contest. Is there any chance you could help out and open this link to dpoll?
https://dpoll.xyz/detail/@theycallmedan/which-steem-project-should-i-delegate-20k-steempower-to-for-1-year/?rep=33&sp=3&age=30&post_count=10&stake_based=0
And drop a vote on SteemChurch.
I would absolutely appreciate it.
Yours
Piotr
I agree with this. I literally tried to spend all my RCs once as a test and gave up not wanting to be a spammy jerk. I had not come remotely close to depleting my RCs.
This suggests that after we implement RC delegations anyone with 500 SP or more can easily serve as a benefactor to a small community of people. This is good, because it encourages businesses to build on Steem.
Steem is not Facebook, its LinkedIn...
Just like my article:
Steem is not Facebook, Its LinkedIn!
Steem originally was designed to be inclusive, Dan's Steem at least, but not Ned's. Ned's Steem is an exclusive network. It makes good business sense, though it may not be pleasant in the eyes of many.
Dear @hobo.media
I only had a chance to read your old comment just now. I appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts with us.
Enjoy your weekend,
Piotr
Right, RC is very hard to exhaust, and a RC delegation market (ie. minnowbooster, etc.) would solve this issue.
The accounts that would potentially encounter RC limitations are dApp operators, but the majority of users should never have to experience a RC shortage if they use Steem sensibly.
I don't even know what RC does for me, other than limiting access when I run out. But I never run out. It was simpler to understand when we just counted SP and it's metric. Perhaps STEEM is getting to complicated to understand and so folks are passing it by?
Yea, I think this is the best option.
Thanks @crypto.piotr, for pointing me to this article with your message.
I have seen Steemit described as an "experiment" and sometimes I have seen it described as nothing more than an "example" of what can be done with the Steem blockchain. I also believe @dan and @ned had rather different visions of what "this" would end up being, hence they got a "divorce."
But part of the truth of the "experiment" part is that it doesn't seem like this was ever clearly defined in terms of what we're trying to do here. But we then end up with a bunch of people with GOOD INTENTIONS working against each other because they look at this and see:
and a whole lot of other things. Which means a lot of people here are not even on the same page, before we even get started.
There are some great other comments here, which I will go read again.
=^..^=
Dear @curatorcat
I just had a pleasure to read this old comment. Just wanted to let you know. I appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts with us.
Seriously respect for your amazing comment.
Yours
Piotr
Good points, but also there have been many people that have abandoned ship due to the collapse of crypto value at the moment, then when it comes back suddenly people pop up out of the woodwork when the price goes up. I personally think it's a great time for people with a lesser profile to make some things happen if they can. I actually just did a post on something similar to this sentiment in how to fix this problem if you would want to read it. Good points, it is definitely a double edged sword when you talk peak/valley valuations of steem on the markets.
Dear @cryptkeeper17
I would like to thank you for accepting my invtation to Juan's post and for dropping by. Appreciate your reply.
We're received more comments than I ever expected and reading it all will take me some time :)
I'm not sure if I ever mentioned (probably I did) but I'm helping group of friends win 1st place in small contest. Is there any chance you could help out and open this link to dpoll?
https://dpoll.xyz/detail/@theycallmedan/which-steem-project-should-i-delegate-20k-steempower-to-for-1-year/?rep=33&sp=3&age=30&post_count=10&stake_based=0
And drop a vote on SteemChurch.
I would absolutely appreciate it.
Yours
Piotr
10 days?
Why you write this BS ?
Intentionally want to misslead people?
Or have no clue how steem's RC works?
Another lie.
30 SP is enough for 95% of newbies.
<0.5% would feel 80 SP is still limiting them. Where that 0.5% probably are bloody spamers anyway
Dear @onealfa
I'm not intentionally misleading people. Why would you think that I'm trying to do that?
I thought that it's quite obvious that I'm trying to point out towards some problem that I can forse and I would like to hear that other people have to say.
If I made mistake and recharging takes less, then just let me know that I made mistake.
Im guessing that I upseted you somehow with my post @onealfa? It's not first time you're quite unpleasant towards me and Im wondering what did I do to you to make you sound so irritated.
Would you mind sharing with me? I would really appreciate. If I ever said anything that could potentially offend you then I'm already very sorry.
Yours
Piotr
This is what you wrote:
10 days is far from truth on steemit.
(maybe not so on tyson.com. But then, heck - WHY such an examples here?)
Everyone can go and check https://steemd.com , and see themselves, that RC recharges from an absolute zero 0% (rare case) to a full 100% in a FIVE dull days. No more, no less. And it does not matter if you hold 10 SP or 500000 SP
Always 0% to 100% in FIVE (5) days.
By the time Steem gets back to $4 again, we may have a totally different rules. Why to bell alarms, which may happen,( or may not) in several years ?
No, you did not.
I just love facts. And can not keep silent, when I see them distorted.
Thank you @onealfa for pointing out my mistake. I already fixed it.
I realy appreciate and value your feedback. The way you share your opinion may not be pleasent to read, but I guess this is just your style. I gotta get used to it.
I understand and obviously I fixed what I considered the fact.
I only disagee with the part when you said that 30SP is enough to stay active. I'm personally in touch with quite a number of people here on Steemit and many of them struggle with low RC even when they powered up to 100 SP.
I guess it really depends on planned activity.
Yours
Piotr
Sure they struggle. Because of poor management. Because they don't want to learn, what SP and RC actually is, how it works, what actions should they make, and what avoid.
Sometimes I see people here with even 1 year old accounts, with 200-300 SP and hundreds of followers still doing crazy, super stupid things.
This is not Facebook. And the rules of the game are much much different.
But the spoiled people don't think how to improve, they just keep whining "give me this and that, give me all for FREE"
Most common mistake I see done by newbies are their never ending upvotes. Maybe this habit comes from FB, Instagram, Reddit etc, where upvote or/and "like" cost you nothing.
Here about the same RC amount is required for one post, or one comment or 15 upvotes. Even 6 new "follows" will eat enough RC for one comment.
And many would still go and hit 50 upvotes per day anyway, instead of saving the same amount of RC for their extra 3 comments.
Very few understand, that their upvote is actually worth NOTHING.
Well, theoretically, 30 SP user voting at full power, brings about 0.0003 STU, which is way below the DUST THRESHOLD anyway.
Every day I see posts with ~1000 upvotes, where the 800 of the lowest value of them, all together, combined are worth less than $0.01. Crazy. Enormous amounts of RC wasted daily , for ...nothing
To me, even 5 word comment is more valuable, than a 200 upvotes from a ~50 SP accounts.
Dear @onealfa
I'm not sure if this is the way to go if we all want Steemit to grow. Blaming newbies for they struggle and saying that they all struggle because of their poor management is not going to help.
I'm not sure how many people out there do you know who have very little SP. I can only assume that you're surrounded by big players (as you are yourself obviously very rich , with huge resources).
I've learned first hand from many of them how difficult it is if you have less than 100SP. I myself delegated almost all my SP to nearly 80 people (40SP each) who struggled with constant low RC levels. And based on their feedback I can tell, that 30-40SP is simply not enough.
And we're not talking about overusing upvotes by them. With such a low SP they can hardly stay active Meaning: several comments daily and they need to STOP and wait 24h to recharge. That is those people reality. It's sad that you refusee to acknowledge the problem and you're blaming all those people for their problems.
So I'm comparing your feedback (person with enourmous amount of SP) against feedback of many newbies (those who according to you are here to blame for their "poor management") and I'm wondering who is right. I think I know "my truth".
Either way thank you for your comments. Appreciate your time, even considering the fact that you were very unpleasent since very first comment.
I really would recommend ignoring me and my publications in the future. Perhaps you can even "mute" me, so my work here will not bother you in the future. My impression is that my person and my work really does bothers you here on Steemit platform. Let's end it now. Please mute me and ignore me.
Best regards
Piotr
Great points raised in these posts. However, I think that as a blockchain becomes inefficient for many users, new competing and improved blockchains will pop up, fostering innovation in the space and making the inefficient blockchains more efficient in the long term. Technological evolution and market forces would normally make sure that inefficiencies and technological stagnation does not last in my opinion.