The majority of my life I have been Pro-Choice when it comes to abortion with some restrictions...

in informationwar •  15 days ago

I am not beholden to any organized religion so while I do value life, I also value choice. I do not just blindly buy into the "life begins at conception". I am one of those that has considered the life in the womb when considering my thoughts. To me regardless of religious beliefs when that life becomes self aware is the point that matters to me. We have not as far as I know pointed out when that occurs. I do think it is worthy of determining.

In being pro-choice I always envisioned the choice I was speaking of as applying to very early in any pregnancy. I am not and never have been an advocate for second or third trimester abortions. While I don't know, I do suspect self awareness likely occurs somewhere in these time frames. I admit it is simply a guess, as we don't truly know.

I consider babies born premature, often by several months, and how they seem aware. They are life. They are an individual.

By my personal morality individuals have the right to life. To forcibly end their lives is murder.

There has been another reason I didn't buy into the "life begins at conception" because if I want to go that route then the egg and the ejacula (sperm) are actually forms of life before they join. Many things are alive. This is why I decided that "self-awareness" is what makes the individual. Now if we want to go in a religious direction then the concept of a soul, or a spirit comes into play. These things may exist. If they do, I still think that self-awareness is when the abortion truly matters. When the new life is aware it is being attacked and it's life ended. When is this? As far as I know we don't know.

I will say that I see third trimester, and post-birth abortions as murder. Plain and simple.

We can bring up the concept of aborting when the mother (I don't know if she can be known as that if she aborts the baby) is at danger due to health risks. Attempts should be made to save them both. Using these exceptions which are a minor outlier is no justification for others to commit murder. There are exceptions to almost every situation. That doesn't mean we treat those exceptions as the norm and thus use it to justify acting as we would in the event of such an exception.

Now I watched the movie Gosnell [1][2][3] last week. It has the sub-title of "The trial of America's biggest serial killer" or something like that. I was unaware it was about abortion when I began watching it. Though to be clear it is not just about abortion. His murders he was found guilty of were NOT the thousands upon thousands of abortions he did in his career. They were of children born alive, breathing, crying, and he'd snip the back of their necks with scissors. They were the deaths of some of the mothers. They were him proceeding with the abortion after the mother changed her mind and was drugged. It is a very disturbing movie.


Source

Now with New York essentially legalizing what Gosnell did in their recent laws it has become a state to openly endorse murder as far as I am concerned. A very evil place. Keep in mind I am not religious in the normal sense of the word. I consider myself a Deist. I think there was a creator/catalyst to creation, I simply don't think it is what is written in the books by man. My bible is observing the wonder of reality around me itself. As such, I can't preach the answers to others, and there are no preachers to preach the truths to me. We all simply observe and use reason. So my issues around abortion are not tied in any way to religion. I thought I'd make that clear so it isn't used to attack me.

I still support pro-choice. Yet my idea of that choice is greatly less than that allowed by most laws. First trimester. Yet if it was ever proven self-awareness was earlier than that then my support would reduce to that time.

I also support the choice should have consequences. I am not really a supporter of someone who repeatedly has unprotected sex, get's pregnant, and then simply goes and has an abortion. That has no accountability, and fosters an environment of irresponsibility. Accidents happen. If it happens over and over again is it truly an accident?

Today is a first. I think this is the first time I've ever written anything about abortion.

EDIT: Adding some articles as I stumble across them while it is relevant.

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It is very troubling that the most dangerous place for a baby is in a feminist's womb.

Regarding your reasonable stance that murder is killing someone, and that requires a person being the victim, I did some research many years ago, and at the time found that the brain of a foetus becomes organized at about 20 weeks. Before that there isn't the potential for a person to be in the body of the child (if you believe the brain is the seat of consciousness, something that hasn't actually been proved empirically), but after that organization process is complete, there is definitely a person there.

New research may have changed that information, but I haven't undertaken it. Regardless of whether that has changed or not, well before birth the child is a human person, and has rights, even if it's still being nurtured in another person's body. Given that it is almost impossible not to know you're pregnant well before you're five months along, there can be no excuse that a woman has a right to empty her womb after there is a human being in there. There was plenty of time for that before there was a person in there.

Also, while I am very supportive of people of both sexes determining at their sole option what they do with their own bodies, I do not see any rational basis for being supportive of murder just because one wants to do that with their own body.

Lastly, men are not without rights in this argument either. They have parental rights equal to women, even though they cannot bear young themselves. Our species has delineated different natural roles for both sexes, and this is a good thing when people do what is right and natural. However, society has strongly disenfranchised fathers and men generally, yet the right of a father to protect his child is not any less than the right of a mother kill it before it's a child.

Before a person is present in a womb, the owner of the womb does in fact have the sole right and authority to care for the potential person in the womb, or evict it from her body. If she does not do so by the time the brain forms and creates a human person at about 20 weeks, she then has undertaken the responsibility of caring for an unborn person that lives in her womb, and if she kills it she commits murder.

Murder is criminal, and should be. Men and women should be parents, not murderers.

Thanks for tackling a difficult subject, and using reason instead of just agreeing with whoever yells loudest, or having faith in magic sky guy/gal. People that exhibit reason, like yourself, give me hope for our posterity, and a future that's worth living.

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It is something I've thought of for awhile. I don't generally dive into it. I'd be interested any links you have about the 20 weeks for when someone inevitably asks me for citations.

People that exhibit reason, like yourself, give me hope for our posterity, and a future that's worth living.

Sadly, you and I don't seem to be the norm.

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We parents go through a phase when we're obsessed with child development - that ends when they start borrowing cars.

I did a quick duckduckgo search and picked a likely link: https://bodytomy.com/brain-development-in-fetus . I scrolled down a bit and saw that my recollection seemed supported here, but this is the only link I checked.

foetalbraindevelopment.png

If you dig a bit, you may refine your understanding.

Thanks for the kind words!

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Well voluntary (meaning making a choice) movement would seem to back up awareness. Good find.

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Essentially, the initial formation of the structure of the brain is complete by 20 weeks, and thereafter growth is quantitative, rather than qualitative. The person has formed, and thereafter becomes more capable. This is my basic understanding of the reported science.

Whether it's at 20 weeks or another point in time, this is a transition that necessarily occurs prior to birth. Therefore, at some point during pregnancy, abortion becomes murder. Allowing abortion during labor is undeniably murder, and there's no rational justification for it.

Thanks!

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My children are all adults. I do have some grand children that spend time at my house every week.

Well, it is hard to discuss all the ramifications of something when we know so little.

All i am about to state is true, although i may not be able to explain it well/thoroughly. And, in the future, it will become self evident. Because, it is there to be discovered, we just do not have the eyes, right now, to look.

  1. Conception starts when the parents are born. Yes, your major goals, people, meetings, life chances are all decided BY YOU before you are born, and this includes getting pregnant and having a child. And that child is already chosen.

  2. We are immortal beings. We do not die, we do not go away. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. This means that death really doesn't have much meaning from a higher viewpoint. Like dying in a video game. However, to the soul who has encarnated, a death can be tragic and painful and have ramifications to future lives.

  3. God exists and loves you, even if you have an abortion. He/she/it gave you free will, and so, will not condemn you for acting on that free will. However, God would like you to not hurt yourself. And, having an abortion is quite painful and life altering. Even getting pregnant by accident is hurting yourself.

So, where do we draw the line on abortion?
Her Body, her choice

It is, and always has to be this way.
However, we should not take away the moral responsibility. That needs to be placed squarely on the shoulder of women.

Unfortunately, we as a society like to shelter women. And women like to put their responsibility on someone else.

This leads to the fact that i hate the most.
Most abortions happen because she was trying to tie down a man, and when he wouldn't put a ring on it, she got an abortion.

Its either that, or women are sooo shtupid that they need to have all their freedoms curtailed until they are barren. And, i don't believe that for a second.

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The fact that you had to preface your opinion by stating that it is “true” speaks volumes.

And the second to last paragraph in your comment is offensively absurd.

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I separated the section where, "you will just have to take my word for it" from the rest.
I find it interesting that you would apply it to the entire writing.

As for the second to last paragraph, that is what non-feminists studies have found.
Of course this puts it into the realm where most people will discard it out of hand.

It is easier to find this statistic:
1 in 4 children are not the (stated) father's, based on blood tests.

You can make your own inferences.

I would just point out that the difference between sperm or an egg and an embryo is that one is biologically and genetically a complete human being and the others are not. When we speak of the right to life, we are talking about human life. Not plants or even animals generally speaking and also not a sperm or an egg or a skin cell or whatever.

Some psychologists argue that "self awareness" does not begin until around age 2 so this also is not a good criteria (in my opinion), at least if we are going by a strict technical definition of what that means.

While I do have religious beliefs, I try not to use those when making an argument for obvious reasons. However, I also believe in the concept of natural rights with the most important among those being the right to life. The only question then is when does that right begin?

Except in cases of rape, all pregnancies occur by choice. Yes, you may use birth control but nothing is 100% effective and that is known ahead of time. At the end of the day, if you are having sex then you know you are engaging in behavior that could possibly lead to pregnancy, regardless of whatever precautions you may be taking.

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As a New Yorker, I just want to say New York is an ignorant place, not an evil one. We don't have much agency when we grow up with left leaning ideology all our lives.

As far as abortion goes I think we need to be careful. If a mother cannot or doesn't want to take care of a child, she will either transfer the responsibility to the state or she will end up harming the child after birth. Two very bad scenarios.

The way I see it, if people cannot act like responsible adults and have sex without hurting innocent people, either though sexual assault, #metoo hysteria, or unwanted pregnancies, then I think it may be time for the government to step into the bedroom. Dave Chappelle had a hilarious skit about having sex contracts.

A scary proposition, and maybe the only real way to regulate sexual irresponsibility.

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