Cross-addressing cross-posting

in OCD5 years ago

My wife and I got to head out for a few hours tonight and grab dinner together, as we were able to have a family member babysit for us. It is pretty rare to have any evening time away from our daughter and hopefully now that she is getting a bit better with her foods, we can do it more often. "Alone time" currently means talking about renovation plans.

Over dinner - we talked bathrooms and laundries - risque.
But I am not here to talk about house renovation foreplay.

IMG_20200222_182358.jpgThis is a picture I took from our table with my phone on a 5x zoom. Not bad.


There are some concerns that the @steempeak cross-posting function is going to lead to abuse and I believe that the concerns are valid and should be looked out for, but even with abuse there is opportunity.

Some of the potential abuses

Firstly, the concerns for abuse are generally surrounding the cross-posting of one's own posts in order to get multiple payouts on the same post. At the moment (afaik) the split percentage for author/ sharer/ interface is 90/5/5, so I could cross-post my content which creates a new post, and double-dip on my autos. This is very possible but also relatively easy to spot. If I see large accounts reposting themselves in this way, it will likely be met with flags.

So then, they will cross-post from their alts to abuse the autos instead. Yes, probably, and this is harder to detect. But since this feature is generally reserved for the best content, it will be pretty obvious when it happens again and again on the same author. While this seems like a good way to make some extra Steem it is also likely a very good way to lose a lot of autovoters. I encourage autovoters to make sure to check on what they are voting on often.

The third point is cross-post selling, which would be much like bidbots except instead of paying delegators, an account with autvoters on them could take a kickback for cross-posting someone else's content. Again possible, harder to detect, but once detected it is likely that the account will lose their autovoters due to their scammy ways.

So what is good?

Well, firstly when it comes to the abuse of the cross-posting functionality, it is pretty easy to spot what is a cross-post and where it comes from. When it comes to the larger accounts, more people will have their eyes on them anyway and the potential loss for losing autovoters is far greater. Those who abuse it are either very greedy, or very stupid.

But beyond the abuse.

Encouraging and incentivizing sharing is a brilliant move to get good content to spread. An individual curator who s able to do this well and build up a following can earn without having a lot of Steem Power to curate. Previously, curation was the main reason (from an economic perspective) to resteem a post as one could vote early, resteem and get more votes to come in on top - this is obviously more of an advantage for those who have SP and a following.

However, because this is targeted at sharing through communities, a curator can cross post relevant content into a tailored community and add value to the community by introducing good content and add value through a percentage of the post rewards. Without creating anything, the curator can earn a percentage and the original author earn a lot more without having to market themselves. This value adds to author and sharer, who could become a valuable content influencer within a community.

Visualize me cross-dressingposted

For example. Let's say I post this piece of content to the OCD community as it is my main community at the moment. However, someone might think that it also fits into the SteemLeo Community and cross-posts it on their account into there. While I wouldn't do this for my own content because I see it as double dipping from my own audience, it is up to the marketplace if they think it fits their audience.

This creates two (or more) instances of my posts that can receive votes, but the audiences might not have any overlap at all between who read the first, and who will read the second. This is content exposure. Not only that, the cross-posted content might not earn Steem at all, but could attract an SMT from the community it is cross-posted into.

Remember that we are here to empower users in many ways and that many of us have been begging for more rewards for good content creators. Providing incentives to share means that users who might not have Steem Power (or other SMT power) and do not have the skill or will to create, can still earn something on their consumption - with no financial investment. And, the incentive is to share good content that the community values. This adds another filter to the proof-of-brain mechanism.

Try adding more incentive to share good content

I would be quite happy to be able to have a larger percentage of the gains go to the sharer and further incentivize them. The reason is that they may have access to audiences I do not or do not have the time to share to, and essentially they become a part of my distribution network. It really is no skin off my nose and it is up to them to shill me if they want to earn more. I would predict that most of the cross-posted content isn't going to earn much unless it comes from a large account.

And then we have this. If for example I find content that I really really want to reward and believe that my audience would apprectiate it as much as me, I can cross-post it and that author is going to benefit heavily from the autovoters that I have worked very hard to gain over the last three years. The effort to gain them also means I do not want to lose them, so I do not want to cross-post undeserving crap, as it is not in my best interest to do so.

This is where a large account with autovoters would be very stupid to take payment for cross-posting, because once an auto is removed, it isn't likely it is coming back. I would have to be very careful as each cross-post will be a short gain for the user I support, but a potential very long loss for me as an active creative on Steem and someone who values my time, content, the community and my ability to earn into the future.

The bad and the good of it

Yes, there is potential for and very likely will be abuse, but whenever there is anything of value to gain, there will be those who try to scam the system. If you haven't learned that from being on Steem yet, you haven't been here very long, or you are blind. In society, these abuses and abusers are generally hidden away, but on Steem they are far more exposed and traceable in history, plaus there are mechanisms to deal with them directly, through downvotes, mutes, unfollows, loss of delegations and turning off the autovote switch on those who abuse the trust.

But, I believe that on this one, the potential for far ranging benefits outweigh the costs of short-term abuse as it provides a feather in Steem's cap that further differentiates it from the market place of the attention economy.

For instance, I am one man sitting at my dining room table each night after working two jobs during the day - I am not overly skilled at or have the time for promoting myself - but I do create relatively decent content that seems to add value to the community in some way. This means that you my audience become my word of mouth publicist and can benefit from doing so while supporting your communities and me in a win-win-win scenario.

I will say it again. This has the potential to be a game-changer on the internet as people will be rewarded for doing what they are currently doing for free - taking engaging content viral.

Taraz
[ a Steem original ]


I apologize for the even longer than normal post, but I think that this has to not only be addressed, but given a chance despite bad actors and other risks. However, keep a very close eye on the cross-posters you see and the values they get. Be curious and skeptical - click the link and see what is shared. You might be pleasantly surprised and find some great content, you might have a target to downvote.


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Wouldn't be surprised if we saw a lot of old/inactive accounts share some shitty crypto "news" onto all relevant communities soon.

Been having a lot of discussions about cross-posting soon and hoping the good will outweigh the bad usecases of it and that Steemit will also implement it in the near future. As mentioned in the past we at @ocd have been hoping for something like this to exist since our community is so general, glad Steempeak added it. Planning on how to best empower more niche communities with cross-posts but needs some thinking to make sure it's the best method and the one that can scale the best.

Cross-posting this onto the SteemPeak community.

@acidyo and @tarazkp I am sorry to say that partly because of having life issues, and not being able to keep up, this communities, tribes and cross-posting thing is making my head hurt. I am, afraid, going to retreat to my WP blog and post via @steempress and use hashtags.

Frankly, one of the reasons I like @ocd is because I'm not boxed and because I have an eclectic range of interests. I guess I'll find a path when 3D life calms down to a panic and I can spend time working through all of this.

Which brings me to my final point: this has become such hard work - just keeping up - and it was supposed to be fun and a place to share content and engage.

rant over

Hmm, I was going to ask someone the other day to create some sort of infographic on how everything works now so it's easier to have an overview of it. We've also refrained from posting clear guidelines of cross-posting from OCD's point of view so far but I think it is about time to do so soon.

That would be very helpful @acidyo and before you do, and you'd like a "stupid" person to ask the "stupid" questions, please feel free to get hold of me via discord. I'd be happy to oblige.

lol, actually everyone is confused to some degree, if not by the technicality then by how to use cross-posts so it doesn't turn into abuse. :D

Bwahaha! Now I feel a whole lot better.

Thank you!

You can share and engage all through the place and if you have specific content for a community, you can find a group who have the same interests. The way it was doesn't scale, and while there aren't that many people here now, with not too many more it becomes unworkable.

Thank you @tarazkp, but this is my point: why should I be working so hard spend more time looking for a place to post when, on other platforms, hashtags do that for me?

Perhaps I got out of bed on the wrong side this morning. Need more coffee :P

Hashtags might do it for you, but so do the algorithms that the platform runs, which can be used to also make you invisible. Are you sure those algorithms are working in your favor?

It is a lot more manual here at this stage, some love it that way.

Well, right now, truth be told, I'm sure of nothing. So, time to stop wittering on, and get on with things.

I will learn and be less of a grinch. In time... ;)

Being a grinch is part of the fun :)

But, so is learning new things :P

Wouldn't be surprised if we saw a lot of old/inactive accounts share some shitty crypto "news" onto all relevant communities soon.

Indeed. I was having a look today at the main of one, thinking if it was taking advantage of the many autos yet...

It is obviously going to get abused by some, but I am hoping that the EIP will help curb it a little. I also think that as it evolves, there will be better ways to use it that are harder to scam on.

Thank you for the cross-post.

Can't communities moderate content now?

To some degree I think.

Hey, @tarazkp.

I was kind of surprised to see how the crosspost actually looks—essentially a post to a link of the original post.

I wonder why it is that way rather than acting more like a resteem, just within the community that it's crossposting too. Same post, different community.

It would make more sense to me if it carried the same upvote and amounts regardless of where it showed up (similar to the way it happens when you look at the tag it's in, or your blog feed—same post, same accumulative STU). Otherwise, I can see it creating far more problems than it actually solves, mainly for the reasons you cite.

If you look at it through Steempeak it looks like the normal post with a label, but the other interfaces haven't introduced it yet.

It can't carry the same values as it allows a post from years ago be shared again. I do not think people should use this on their own content however.

Eso mismo leí en una publicación de tu hermano. Vengo de regreso despues de más de un año fuera de steemit y me encuentro con muchos cambios que no puedo asimilar rapidamente. Pero.. ¿Cómo puedo cruzar una publicación? No tengo idea de cómo hacerlo. ¿Por qué quiero hacerlo? Bueno, existimos muchos steemians, principalmente de la comunidad hispana, que desconocemos tantas actualizaciones que han llegado. Yo publico desde steempeak, porque me parece fenomenal, sin embargo, batallo cada día en aprender cómo funciona. busco aprender lo que más pueda porque de esa manera puedo orientar a la gente con la que estoy en contacto cada día. Sería muy amable de tu parte si pudieras explicarme o dirigirme a na publicación dónde pueda leer al respecto.
Gracias.

I read that in a publication of your brother. I come back after more than a year out of steemit and I find many changes that I cannot quickly assimilate. But .. How can I cross a post? I have no idea how to do it. Why do I want to do it? Well, there are many steemians, mainly from the Hispanic community, that we don't know about so many updates that have arrived. I post from steempeak, because it seems phenomenal, however, I struggle every day to learn how it works. I seek to learn what I can most because that way I can guide the people with whom I am in contact every day. It would be very nice of you if you could explain to me or show me to a post where I can read about it.
Thank you.

Thank you for your post that's led to these discussions, I was going to quietly fumble through it all as it was confusing me somewhat, not having much time and zero techno know-how but now I understand how someone could share a post I wrote some 2 years ago, I was really puzzled by that!

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I have been playing around with this a bit in the past few days. I was a bit surprised by the way it worked... And thought it was just sharing the same post in a different community (which would address the problem that I have of wanting to belong to a few communities...), I didn't expect it to create a new post!

As it is, it isn't what I hoped for... But I hope that there will be a way to be able to post across communities (it doesn't appear that having multiple jobs tags works?)!

Nah, this is much more geared towards sharing other people's content.

I also think there is some confusion as many seem to not distinguish the difference between an interface and a community at the moment. That'll change though.

I am hoping there is a way to post to multiple communities using the same instance of a post coming, kind of like the resteem works to add it to the blog roll, where the "resteem to community" function exists. Not my area though :)

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Greetings @tarazkp you seemed to have stirred a bee hive here Lol
For what it's worth, I will not be doing any cross posting at this stage.
But I have a question.
If someone cross posts my stuff, will I be liable to also cross post their stuff?
Blessings!

If someone cross posts my stuff, will I be liable to also cross post their stuff?

You don't have to do anything at all :)
If they cross-post your stuff, you will benefit the most from whatever that post earns. As I see it, incentivizing sharing is a good thing, although there is the potential for abuse of various kinds.

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Thank you for this and for your kindness Sir.
Our charity holds a sterling record of accountability and we do everything the straight and honest way.
Sadly the abusers will always be around and one just has to tread carefully.
You are correct that the incentivizing could unlock some growth across the board, but and there is always a but, a close eye will have to be kept on the procedures!
Blessings to you and yours!



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I checked one of the cat communities and found my old post there. I don't like that.
There will be more bad than good, but we can always add more troops to Steem Police and watching policemen taking advantage of policing.

Did you blame the cat?

I think that in time there might be the potential for an "opt-out" where people can't crosspost (@jarvie). There can be several other measures that come into play also as it develops.

At least, it is better than someone cutting and pasting content as there own which used to happen often and still does from time to time.

Out of curiosity. If your cat post ended up earning a lot (you get 90%, the sharer 5%, the community it was posted to 5%) , would it change your opinion?

I'm very interested in this discussion
Technically they didn't post his content there... They referenced his post, simply shared a link in the post. We looked up that link and showed the post and correctly attributed and forced the user to give their post rewards to the original author. So is this comparable to someone is saying they don't want their content talked about or seen by another group of people?

Is this like saying the NY Post doesn't want their news article linked by Trump on twitter because donald trump supporters will read their news and that's not who they want to cater to with their public news article.

Yes, it is an interesting aspect.

What is possible however is to edit the post after CPing, and make it look like something it is not perhaps. Yes, the history to the edit is there, but there is also the potential for taking payment on something that wasn't the original.

I have seen some users CPing and then editing in the original post to make it look like a new post. it does make it look nicer, however it also takes away the "warning" that this is a cross post and therefore anther instance. THey are doing this on their own posts of course...

No, because this feature will bring harm to the steem platform.
People with no reputation and no steem power will start cross-post farming to catch some cents. Not Canadians or Finns, though.
I see this becoming a big issue sooner than later.

They are doing that now, at least they will have some better content and that better content can earn as well? When it comes to distribution and inclusion, the idea is to open taps to those without reputation or Steem Power. However, I think that the biggest gains for this will be for those who put it into communities running SMTs, not Steem, as it always for a community to have attractive, relevant and decent content without having to only rely on their own community for it - which might be small to begin with.

Takes time to evolve.

I have been meaning to get to this for the last 24 hours - it raises things I've been thinking about too, though I usually go for the yay! positive side.

I think anyone autovoting should limit to one every 24 hours, BUT of course those using their own autovoters are going to take advantage of the system. I'm going to be super cautious of voting cross posts UNLESS they are old posts - like @whatamidoing's dead post iniative, they are great for evergreen rewards and to start new conversations in communities.

Encouraging and incentivizing sharing is a brilliant move to get good content to spread.

Yes, and that's what I like about it. I'll crosspost things I really thing SHOULD be seen by multiple communities, and I like the way we can drop a conversation starter or a reason for the crosspost on it - i.e 'Hey @naturalmedicine folk, really don't want you to miss out on this!' as a community leader.

I do not want to cross-post undeserving crap, as it is not in my best interest to do so.

Indeed - as responsible Steemians too, we want to model responsible behaviour. I'd be very circumspect about exactly what I crosspost.

I do think this has enormous potential, and I'm really looking forward to see what happens when we all get a handle on how it works. There will always be those who scam the system as you say.

I do love the potential for community conversations too - eg I really loved a post by someone 6 months back about making your own witchhazel, and it came up in the Discord server, so I will find it and post it to the community with a note - the author will get new rewards and we get to benefit from teh content we might have missed the first time.

Great post - I won't crosspost it, but will resteem it, and refer to it in my own post this afternoon. xx

:)

There is a lot of potential here and it is in a very rough for currently. Once there are edges knocked off and functionality added, it has the potential to add a lot of network value and give options to more people for earning, while giving content buckets more chance to fill with quality.

I am running through many comments on little time, but thanks for adding your thoughts :)

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I really wish people were not creating functions to cross post in their apps. When we post we are being rewarded so in essence we are being paid for our work even if it isn't much. We are basically free lance writers for these sites. So as a free lance writer if you write a piece and say Forbes buys it, you can't sell that piece to the New Yorker the next week. Not unless you are in some type of syndication but then that is a whole different set of rule and are normally owned by the same company or leased by the company that bought the piece and lease it to be used by another company.
I personally don't like cross posting as I believe because of the reasons I stated above it is wrong, but also why would anyone come here if they can find the content on multiple platforms. It devalues every platform it is cross posted on IMO.

Well, while I can appreciate the stance, the reason behind your example is advertising revenue and the magazine saying that they own the content.

Historically, a freelancer was a mercenary who would fight for whoever paid them.

We aren't freelance writers, we are free-writers.

A free-writer has no rights if s/he publishes here?

A free-writer owns whatever they post. A Freelancer sells it to whoever pays.

You do have a valid point that we are not really freelance writers and more of free writers, but I think that every platform would be better off if people wrote content exclusive for the platform and instead of cross posting they cross-promoted.

One of the benefits of Steem is that there is content freedom however, people can go anywhere. All of these platforms are on Steem.

Wait I was talking about cross posting on other platforms that are not steem. I thought the Front ends no matter which one you used posted to the steem platform I guess I didn't realize it was cross posting across the front end. Since when did people even start to need that, mind you I rarely use other front ends and when I do it is because I can't access steemit then will use busy. I am not into all the different apps and front ends that others use. I am so old school.

Because communities were introduced and it is crossposting into communities, not necessarily the front ends.

Why would you need to if it all ends up on the same blockchain. Yeah this seems especially abusive of the rewards system even more so than cross.posting on different blockchains IMO.

Go and have a look at the cross-posts of @acidyo.
He is essentially giving the rewards he could easily take and a great deal of exposure to authors that might not get it otherwise. But hey, you do you :)

Oh, and use SteemPeak when viewing them, not Steemit.com

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I agree with most of your points @tarazkp but these rules apply if you want write a blog or share a youtube link.

For example, if I want to upload a skate video on Dtube and then share it with the Steemskate community there is no other way to do it than cross post my Dtube post from the dtube community to the Steemskate community since just adding the hive tag on a dtube video won't work.

Yeah, I can see this and I am hoping that there will be a way to "crosspost" the same instance to different communities, but I do not think crossposting for twice the rewards will benefit the author long-term - as any autos and support one gets might drop away very fast.

There is game theory in every step of the process here and, it is highly dynamic. Makes it hard to really know what is the best course of action as one has to consider the reactions of a decentralized community, all with their own incentives and agendas. I like it :)

Thanks for your fast reply @tarazkp.

We skateboarders really love to share videos instead of blog posts so it's not about the rewards, it's about making the Steemskate community active. If you take a look at the #Steemskate tag 9/10 posts are dtube videos. You are right about the auto voting man. People won't vote the same guy 10 times a day and I can't blame them for that.

I am pretty sure that Dtube will fix this though or else communities are pretty much useless in our case (skateboarders).

Yeah, I understand your case in point for this. I will assume that at some point there will be a cross-posting feature without the new post being created.

I am glad there is a skate community here :)

Hope so too my friend! I don't like ripping the rewards from the reward pool either. I am doing pretty great with just my daily upvotes.
Yeah, we've been active as a community for more than 2 years under the #Steemskate name. Here is our hive if you want to subscribe and take a look :

#SKATEFORLIFE bro!

Subscribed, thanks :)

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Thanks for the tokens!
Here is my gift to you.

!SKATE100

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I have been taking this approach for a few days: /@simplifylife/communities-and-cross-posting-made-ridiculously-simple-for-everyone

and cross-posting my own stuff, just to get more eyes on it. My logic in cross-posting to a couple of different communities is to ensure I get more visibility, not to double dip. But with the way rewards are distributed to each of the cross posts individually it seems to actually hurt me more than helping.

Big accounts are naturally going to get more cross-posts from others. Smaller accounts are going to get even more hidden by the fact that their posts are only showing up within the communities they post in.

Perhaps a solution of funneling back the cross-post's rewards to the original post (like Resteeming does) would be helpful for creators like me.

Big accounts are naturally going to get more cross-posts from others.

I don't think this is the case, except from small accounts. I have found that the larger accounts using the feature tend to cross-post the work of others. Then there are curation communities like @ocd who are only going to reward cross-posts from others.

Perhaps a solution of funneling back the cross-post's rewards to the original post (like Resteeming does) would be helpful for creators like me.

Maybe, but I think that a better solution would be being able to resteem own posts into different communities, but only cross-post someone else.

I resteemed a post from a community into my own blog, that seemed to make a difference in visibility (and get me some downvotes from people who genuinely did not like the post!). It would be great to be able to resteem to communities.

I haven't cross-posted yet, but when I do, it will only be someone else's content. I think the resteem to communities will arrive soon enough. This is all a new thing and it is good to be able to see behavior before investing into design fully.

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