Joe Rogan Needs A Mindware Upgrade - Vegans are Not Earth's Enemy! (Project Much?)

in health •  2 months ago

Despite Joe Rogan talking sense on numerous subjects (that fit in to his own preferred path in life) - he repeatedly talks utter nonsense (provably) when it comes to veganism. Here we look briefly at this.

For those who are unaware, this man has a podcast and tackles subjects that don't get spoken about so much by the mainstream (just as a large array of others also do on their own web shows). He is liked by many for his straight talking and his 'manly' attitudes (which often include sarcasm and being a general advocate for hunting animals, killing them and eating them):

Setting aside all of the other topics he covers, I am just going to focus on veganism. I first heard him speak about this topic a few years ago (as I recall) and while I don't usually listen to his shows, I listened to him on veganism as he was kicking up a stink in the vegan communities online. He was essentially insulting vegans, even using ad hominem attacks (As I recall) and making points that he claimed showed veganism to be a problem. He has painted a picture of vegans as being in a 'gang' who go around attacking those who are not vegans. The reality though is that of all the vegans I have known, I have never met a single one who I know to be involved in such things - including the activists who speak on streets regularly.

While I am sure there ARE some out there who act aggressively to others regarding their choice to eat dead animals - the majority do not. As I spoke about recently too here, there is no amount of 'opinion forcing' that any vegan could ever do that would match the 'opinion forcing' that meat eaters do to animals on a daily basis. Any accusations against vegans for their actions to protect animals come with a denial which says that protection of animals is simply wrong because humans have a 'right' to do whatever they want to animals (as long as the species of animals is one of the ones that has been designated ripe for abuse and not a more fluffy one that the meat eater has an emotional attachment to!).

When it comes to the more nutritional and social aspects of veganism, Joe makes several claims referencing scientific studies - but never seems to reference the fact that meta studies of the entire field of published scientific studies have shown that the vast majority of ALL scientific studies are later found to be flawed! So we must be VERY careful when referencing scientific studies and personally, I prefer to only use them as a reference point for further thinking and never rely on them as being the gospel truth.

Those who have done due dilligence research can quite easily rebutt his position and pick holes in it all day. To date I have not heard any such well researched vegan activist speak directly with him.

My post today was triggered by my friend here, Hench Herbivore - a vegan body builder and physical trainer who spends a lot of his time studying nutrition and scientific opinion/studies relating to vegan nutrition - putting out a video on Joe Rogan:

It is worth pointing out additionally that it is entirely possible to produce plant foods without killing anything - two things:

  1. polytunnels or equivalent structures to protect the crops. this is practical on a home level and it is far more efficient to produce your own food than to buy it in (in my opinion).

  2. through optimisation of the soil and plant growth conditions, it is possible for plants to reach their genetic maximum - which actually includes an extra outer layer of waxy protection against insects and probably some smaller creatures/animals. this is something that 99+% of farmers appear to know nothing about.

As far as using monsanto (now owned by Bayer) goes - only someone ignorant of the lived experiences that have been created as a result of the use of monsanto products and also of the associated bio chemistry involved would do so. Enlightenment and study is needed now.

Wishing you well,

Ura Soul

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Yep, the meat-eater/vegan topic is one of the ones where JR seems to be almost 100% close-minded & dogmatic, right up there with the capitalism/competitive "human nature" concept.

He had a (former) doctor who eats only meat on at one point, they talked about how great it was for him, blah blah blah. Later, the guy finally got his blood-work done and his results were atrocious.

JRE w/ Shawn Baker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj_Bc9hdHa0
Mic The Vegan's Response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc23vYwPihU
Mic's Follow Up after Blood-Work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxC_76sUIf8

Jordan Peterson, on his most recent JRE appearance, was also actively pushing an "only-meat" diet. Joe asked a couple questions and seemed a little dubious of it, but they certainly didn't discuss the ecological, economic, or moral aspects of the "diet".

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Yes, I remember that whole debacle too - completely ridiculous. It is clear that he has not yet evolved a heart balance that recognises the value of co-operation in place of competition (at least not sufficiently for it to correct the unconscious biases he is being run by currently). :/

Like everyone else, Joe Rogan is only trying to find evidence that support his view of reality and that is hunting animals is fun. On other hand, he makes good points about some aspects of veganism like problem of mass production of vegan food which is sometimes far from vegan values.

What most of vegans don't want to face is fact that solution is not to become vegan without producing any kind of food by themselves. If everyone went vegan without producing any kind of food, someone would have to produce for them and problems of big agriculture will emerge. Not saying producing food ecologically on massive scale is not possible, but for the most part it's not.

I would add one more twist to this story. There are people who add structured water based on vortex technology to their plants. Basically, after some kind of electrical impact on water thru some machine, from 10 000 l of water you get only small fraction it in the end (10 l at the most if I remember correctly). You water your plants with it and plants grow much bigger. I saw people do that and their plant were much bigger then plant watered with normal water.

In my opinion there is much more knowledge like this that was lost, which will help a lot. What we grow it can be 3x and more bigger then it is today. Do I have to emphasize what impact would that have on us growing food?

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Absolutely, yes - centralisation of power is not sustainable - including food production.
I agree that we need to take responsibility for our own food production and you are absolutely right that there are a variety of known methods that can be used to dramatically increase yields for little cost. I would love to participate in a community that uses all of them - and I will. :)

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You reminded me to take note 'Write article about structured water'. Just remembered that I saw show where they demonstrate how colors influence grow of plants. They put various color glass around plants. If I remember correctly, when they put plants in blue glass surrounding, plants where growing quicker with bigger fruits. Must re-check all this to be sure... Note #2 added 😁

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you can study the work of Dr. John Ott to learn how glass, in general, blocks the UV light that plants need to grow.. They (and so too for humans) grow better inside plastic polytunnels than in glass.

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Don't remember exactly was it glass or something else, but it was showed that with some color surrounding plant where getting better. Must research it again to exactly know.

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Different coloured light has different effects on plants depending on what stage of growth they are at. The vegetative state requires different frequencies for optimal growth as compared to other stages, for example. Green light is best suited for plants that naturally develop under the canopy of trees.
I am interested to see more on this though, yes, it's not something I see much written about. :)

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Count me as interested to learn more about this, as well. :) I have made an attempt to be much more mindful of where I am getting my food from. Since I came to veganism more from the health aspect initially, I try to avoid the over-processed over-packaged vegan foods anyway. Even though many are not vegan, I have enjoyed following a lot of the homesteaders on Steemit just to learn more ways to preserve the local food I have access to while it is in season or improve my own gardening skills.

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I will reply to this comments once more when I'm done with article.

There is brilliant show on Croatian TV "On edge of science" with many various topics. On one episode guest was dude from Germany who thru deep meditation received instruction how to built machine which will make water 'better'. He made experiment by watering plants with that water. From all photos I remember his sunflowers being much higher then sunflowers watered with normal water.

Even there is a lot of "On edge of science" shows on youtube, couldn't find that one after 30 minutes search. Will try to research following days...

For argument sake (and that's what it mostly is) I completely disagree with your thoughts on this topic. Rogan does go a bit extreme with his unsatiable attitude on eating meat. The fact is he does promote sustainable living and most vegans are so in your face that it has become a cult, like he said. I think we just need to agree to disagree on this issue

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I fully agree - nearly every vegan I encounter online or through our business www.naturefoods.co.nz is militant, in-yer-face and pretty clueless!

We sell lots of animal products to ex-vegans with a bunch of nutrient deficiencies!

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As stated by Paul in his video, it is not sustainable in any sense to eat meat. The basic maths involved, regarding the quantities of material and space required for us all to eat meat, show this to be the case. What happens when a cult becomes so 'normal' that it is the prevailing attitude? Is it still a cult? Is there a hidden cult of meat eaters?

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Like I said, we need to agree to disagree on this issue. No sense arguing about it on this type of thread

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You 'argument' is 'Let agree to disagree'...That is not argument in any sense.

What is happening in my opinion is that meat eaters feel threaten by vegans who are just openly saying their opinion. In mind of meat eaters that sound like attack and try to force them to change.

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Please work on your reading skills, then comment on what I said. There is now way to have an actual discussion in a setup like this, it would basically be something like two teams arguing where there can only be one winner. That's the problem with society these days, it's not okay to disagree with someones point without the other person getting offended and insults start flying around.

The inability to see something from someone elses perspective is probably the biggest problem we face as a species. I completely disagree with what @ura-soul but I still appreciate the fact that he has an opinion on the matter and took the time to write about something that is important to him. That's why I gave him an upvote, put in my 2 cents and left it at that.

So let me clear things up for you, you're right, I am not putting forth an argument in any way, I'm leaving my opinion and that is it.

Let me also clear up one more thing for you. I am an omnivore, like 99.9% of the human population, I don't eat just meat and I am in no way shape or form threatened by any vegans.

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Fair enough. Rarely someone 'admit' he didn't offer any argument.

Problem with conversation where no arguments are offered is obvious...there are no argument to discuss about. Saying 'I disagree.' and offering no arguments is pretty useless. Subject of conversation is not important.

(99.9% of human population are not omnivores)

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Personally, I know many militant vegans. Usually they are people new to veganism and therefore get a bit overly excited when it comes to the subject. However, most vegans are generally pretty chill, fact based people.

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I agree with this! ‘Baby’ vegans are usually the most angry because it’s so fresh. When I first became vegan I told everyone I knew that i was a vegan, even people I didn’t know or that didn’t ask. I wanted to start conversations just to be able to throw facts at people. I have since calmed down and only address things when necessary. I will talk all day long to someone who will listen but will quickly end a conversation if it seems to be turning angry. Calm, rational conversations are the only ones I will have because I don’t need to give vegans any more of a negative reputation than we have unfortunately. A reputation I believe we have due to people’s own guilt more than the militant vegan.

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Yup, same here. I just chill and mind my own business nowadays. If people ask about it, I give them the facts. For the most part I focus on leading by example.

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I'm vegan and know a lot of vegans. Don't know one who is forcing meat eaters to become vegan. How many times vegan personally attack you and tried to force you to become vegan?

That picture alone is enough for me to never listen to his podcast or anything asssociated with him.

I've never met a militant vegan, I know a few and its just a personal choice, they aren't all preachy. Joe Rogan is a dumb ass game show host and i have never cared about his faux alternative opinions.

I understand the moral issues in killing animals. Do vegans have similar moral issues in killing plants? How is the justification made different?

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In my experience, most who call themselves vegans are so caught up in the politics of ending the exploitation of animals that they don't focus so much on the suffering of plants. Some will say the lack of a central nervous system means that the plants are not suffering. Others say they do feel pain.

Veganism is actually about ending the suffering of living beings - so it is not wrong to consider plants too.

As far as I am aware, the plants that are food baring, such as apple trees and grape vines - for example - do not die when we eat their food. This to me is a major clue to inform us of what is food and what is not. I would very much like to explore ways of living that involve no death at all - including no death of plants. To do this though requires quite a lot of learning, preparation and growth.. Which I have not yet done.

Some vegans will justify the killing of plants by pointing out that we are not generally aware of a will in the plants that wants to live - but that does not mean that the will is not there. None the less though, it is abundantly clear that the will to live is present in animals and so we do definitely need to respect this if we intend the planetary and collective will to find the balance needed.

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A 'no death' model would seem to be the greater goal.

Some of the products of plants are seeds, things like beans, peas, and even wheat.

What are your thoughts on using seeds, how would that parse in a 'no-death' concept?

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Generally, eating raw seeds results in them passing right through the digestive tract as they cannot be broken down and absorbed by the body. This means that if we pass them out naturally (not into a sewerage system), then we actually stand a chance of producing more life once those seeds grow. This is actually biology 101 and is part of the propagation of life on this planet.

In cases where seeds and grains are taken, processed and eaten then they cannot produce more life - however, it appears that when they are processed in this way, they can become a problem for the human system - for example, the weight that is gained due to eating most breads.

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I guess it is dependent on the parameters. Eating a pod of raw snow peas that aren't fully developed would be digested mostly as plant food.

There are some seeds were the outer coating is digested. The seeds will often not propagate without the coating digested away by a animal.

As a side note, one of the high protein sources in my surrounding environment is buffalo gourd seed:

The seeds contain between 25-42% fat (Berry et al. 1976). Fat in the form of vegetable oil would be a critical dietary component in a desert, where animals carry very little fat on their bodies. Buffalo gourd seeds are also high in protein (22-35%) making them comparable to some legume seeds.

https://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/ethnobot/images/cucurbitabg.html

So maybe the pivotal point is on the efficacy to process the seeds or not.

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In my experience, the closer we move towards a natural way of being - which involves eating natural, whole foods - the better it is for us and our environment... So yes, the processing aspect is key.
It would be very enlightening to see the results of an experiment whereby a significant number of people came together to live in a 'no death' environment' where nothing was being denied. :)

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I think the people would have to travel in the experiment, as no particular location has a very good long term sustainable 'no death' calorie production rate, when compared to human consumption.

Still, I think it is a plausible possibility.

Rogan is irresponsible and he just wants to have a good time. He is self-centered and deserves to live in LA.

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You mean the City of Lost Angels isn't heaven? ;)

Great post @ura-soul! I totally agree that there are just as many (or probably many more) meat-eating militant people throwing out "bacon is delicious" comments daily on vegan posts. And many of these posts are just sharing a recipe or something simple, not even "attacking" omnivores! I think lately I'm the one who keeps catching the trolls in the vegan discord group posting bloody dead animal pictures (or worse). All in all most of the vegans I come across wish to spread love and light, not hate. At least the ones I choose to spend my energy with, anyway. :)

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That is so true. Saw that many time in croatian vegan groups. But lately it stopped.

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I personally do not wish to censor any side of the issue and if it were not for the combining of my realisations about health with understandings of the reality of slaughter houses and animal treatment I might not be vegan. But yes, attacking is not helpful or useful - even when those being attacked are themselves participating in large scale slaughter.

Rogan is total shill and a half. Also His anti-vegan arguments are pre-school laughable.

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There are numerous quotes in 'the bible' that speak to not killing animals:

Isaiah 66:3 English Standard Version (ESV)

“He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;
he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck;
he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood;
he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol.
These have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delights in their abominations;

That said, there are also lines that contradict. I understand this to be because part of the text is 'pre love' and part of it is 'post love' (heart).

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Thanks for the notable article,