Why should anyone have the power to reduce another person's pay-out?
I wrote a detailed whaleshares/steem comparison a few days ago and was immediately flagged 8 times on steem by berniesanders (who also sent a very large picture of some poo) not because I used him as an example of what happens when the power concentrates in the hands of a few but because he felt as if he needed to "protect people from shitcoins run by scammy trash". So he says.
I am not interested in talking about his comment in this moment but I will say that you need not concern yourself with the validity of his words.
What I would like to talk about here is the conversation bernie & I went on to have under my post and where the thought process led me.
To clarify, I had received a 100% upvote from @stellabelle for which I am most grateful, with a lovely little endorsement to go with it.
Thank you Stella but I will never know what your 100% upvote tastes like because bernie did his best to make sure I received nothing.
Thank you Whaliens!
Before I go any further I want to say an even bigger thanks to the Whaleshares community for the way in which you have supported this same post on Whaleshares. Needless to say I would be feeling much more hard done by in this moment if it wasn't for you lot, so... thank you 🙏🏻
The bernie conversation
Caught up in the passion of it all I described the reality of my situation which is that I rely on steem to feed my family.
Appealing to his better nature was always going to be a long shot and yep, not a chance.
Somewhere in our brief conversation, which I ended when he became too aggressive, he said the following words to me:
I'm not sure you understand the concept of freedom.
I thought about this for a moment and concluded that he was probably right.
So I looked it up.
Freedom:
The power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants.
The state of not being imprisoned or enslaved.
Point 1 seems clear but there is a certain amount of ambiguity around being imprisoned or enslaved. We don't need to be physically imprisoned to be in a prison. Mainstream media does this very effectively without our awareness.
The flagging question
Here we are on the cutting edge of new age social media, seeking a system which is fair & censorship free. Whaleshares have made it x3 times more expensive to use our flag here, which is a great improvement on steem.
With this adjustment only the mega whales will care about flagging someone into oblivion as bernie so kindly did to me.
HOWEVER...
We are still just talking about money here.
Those with the most can mess with those with the least by essentially de-monetising certain topics. Bernie has made it abundantly clear he doesn't like me shilling whaleshares on steem and he has the power to reduce my rep to 0 ensuring I never see a single pay-out again, should he choose.
This brings me back to that 2nd definition of freedom. I am not physically being imprisoned or enslaved but I am being manipulated to the will of another and this in my mind means I am not free.
Solution?
Why can't we eliminate the ability to reduce pay-out with a flag?
Perhaps just a big red flag in the top corner so that all may know it has been flagged?
I imagine there must be a logical answer to this question which in this moment I cannot see. Perhaps someone might be able to enlighten me?
It seems to me that while this feature remains (in whatever form) in the end we will still have our high powered bullies running amuck unchallenged.
Eliminating the feature altogether must surely be the only way to guarantee this cannot happen?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
Who is @samstonehill?
The reason your rewards can be reduced with a flag is exactly the same reason it can be increased with an upvote. There is a fixed rewards pool that is distributed among everyone. If you get more, everyone else gets less and vice versa. I see our job as curators ultimately as judges of how much a post is worth. If you see a post that you feel is worth more than it has currently earned, upvote it (you can even vary the percent if you have enough power). However, if you see a post that you don't feel is worth very much and perhaps is even complete spam yet currently has a high rewards level then you can downvote/flag it.
The number one reason listed under reasons to flag (at least on Steemit) is disagreement with rewards. This helps prevent abuse whether its via bots or some other methodology. I think we've all seen complete garbage posts that have been upvoted to $100s of dollars (or more) via bots or friends or whatever. This causes everyone else's rewards to go down. Flagging is one way to counter this. Because the rewards pool is fixed, in reality, an upvote for one person is effectively a downvote/flag (though an extremely minor one in most cases it all adds up) for everyone else. In other words, I affect your rewards negatively by upvoting other people too. Having both an upvote and a flag just gives some flexibility and more opportunity to counter abuse then just an upvote alone would.
Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that both upvotes and flags can be abused or used too aggressively.
You are right in that those with most have the most effect. This is true whether they are upvoting or downvoting. The theory behind this is that those with the greatest stake and the most to win or lose will care most about curating and rewarding the highest quality posts and punishing spam or other abuse as this (again in theory) will bring more people to the platform. This is the whole theory behind steem and similar blockchains and what gives the associated currencies their value. After all, where does the demand for steem (or whatever) come from if there is no motive to gain and hold more? This demand is what creates its value.
Ultimately, if those with the highest stake don't do a good job of curation and therefore drawing more users, the value of steem will go down to their detriment. Obviously we are talking about human beings here and everybody will perceive the best way to curate in different ways. The success of Steem/Weku/Waleshares/etc. depends in large part how good a job they do on average.
I don't think this is an issue of freedom. Steem was put in place with certain rules that, while a bit complicated, were completely public. You joined and participate voluntarily. You can stop at any time, go to a different system, or even create your own. Besides, as I said before, even upvotes of someone else affect your payout, a flag is just a somewhat more direct way to do it.
Looking at it like this really helps. Thank you.
The freedom thing was more a feeling than anything else. I was conscious that I was feeling fear just before posting, knowing bernie would get a notification because I mentioned him. I suspected there would be trouble and there was. But it got me thinking that if there is fear of reprisal when posting, is this really the best we can do to achieve free speech?
Notice how I've not mentioned his complete username in this post!
The fear of course is that if I piss him off too much he may just terminate my steemit experience forever and I feel sure that within our complicated rules there is room to put an end to this kind of behaviour.
But what is there to be afraid of in terms of freedom of speech? Your speech is unaffected unless you chose it to be. Freedom of speech doesn't include guarantee of payment which is all you can really lose on this platform. You get to chose whether the payout is more important or the freedom to say what you want. Whatever you post here will be on the blockchain "forever" (or until the last witness shuts down) regardless of how many flags you get.
The fear is that I cannot feed my family unless I write about what the rich people want me to write about. It's like an augmented kind of freedom.
I do appreciate the permanence of blockchain which is unquestionably an improvement on previous systems. Even if a post has been collapsed, had it's images removed and pay-out reduced to zero, de-incentivising people to read it... it is still there underneath all the 'DO NOT VIEW' kind of warnings.
I understand the concern but ultimately what you are saying is true whenever you are selling something.
Plus, I don't think freedom of speech equates to the entitlement to make a living from your speech. You can write a book but no one has to buy it. I get that the dynamic is a little different here but I think it's ultimately the same concept. Someone has to decide the value of what you have produced and be willing to pay for it. On Steem it is the consensus of all the votes and flags that are cast that decides. The fact that those with more money have a greater say in what is bought (and for how much) is an inevitable result of a free market. It isn't perfect but like I've said before, I would argue that there is nothing better and that there won't be without a fundamental change in human nature. No matter how rewards are distributed, whales would emerge as long as there is a market for steem and without a market for steem then this would all be moot anyway.
Having said that, I'm sure there are tweaks that can be made to make things better. I just don't think the fundamentals are going to change very much.
Well said @darth-azrael, I appreciate your balanced perspective. We all have freedom, it all starts with our own perspective. Thanks for taking the time to break it down in such a unbiased way. You add value! 👍
Im a bit shocked.you were downvoted to zero on your last post .. I want to.do more Whaleshare posts but am not sure how to zip between two platforms and what do I do about Natural Medicine? Xxx
Posted using Partiko Android
I'm sure you've seen that there's a thing called masdacs that makes it fairly easy to cross-post. Though I'm too fussy about the minor differences in how the different platforms read my codes so I just copy/paste and tweek manually for now.
Also my opinion on NM is keep going! Would even love to see it on both chains and I feel with more who are open to accepting the reality of open source, the more we can fade these imaginary borders.
NM is such a important and valuable project I'm sure it's not going to be negatively effected by the faults/differences of how Steemit works. Just as long as no one talks about those darn vaccines lol eh @samstonehill? 😂
Shhhhhh... don't mention the vaccines! ;)
Perfect advice bro. For me the copy/paste system only adds adds around 30 sec to the posting process. It is the comments which are becoming a little harder to cover.
I've been working on a urine therapy post for a week now and cant seem to get to the end, it's such a cool subject!
Personally I don't find the copy/paste system too troublesome. Though I have noticed a few words might need changing here and there to fit the relevant platform. But only because I am currently discussing them.
Yes, like Keni says, simply get NM on both. More coverage, more better ;)
Hm... now I need to figure out how to open an account!
Posted using Partiko Android
I believe I can help you with this and have the spare tokens to do so. See you in @smg discord?
Yes, over next few days babe, @kenistyles just going to bed after waiting for my ridiculous film to upload on Dtube, going bananas online so gotta get some shut eye xxx
Ok no worries, I'm revisiting the process right now anyways for @iamjamie. So get some rest and we'll catch up in chat. Will check on your vid in a bit! 👍
After my flag attack last week because I used poitical humor (npc's), against the left - I was dowvoted for a few days , on everything...
I realized steemit isn't the free speech idea we were sold on.
Downvoting is an aggressive, negative action, against another - one that penalizes , but upvoting isn't - it's a positive action.
Steemit stalwarts can rationalize it all they want - the dynamic is authoritarian in nature , and nothing else.
As someone who has experienced this a few times now I completely sympathise... and agree with you here. It doesn't make sense to me that downvotes must exist alongside upvotes. Yes, I can see situations in which this feature will benefit us but knowing how the power seems to naturally collect into the hands of a few (as money always does) in the end we will always have rich bullies, unless another system is found.
I just finished this meandering 3 minutes ago...you might 'get it'...
https://steemit.com/blog/@lucylin/the-reluctant-revolutionary-really-but-it-has-to-be-said-and-i-m-thinking-communism-meets-capitalism
Since when does the freedom of speech guarantee you a payment? As I mentioned above, upvoting someone else negatively affects your payout also and flagging someone positively affects everybody else's payout. You may not agree with how it works and that's fine but flags existed when you signed up and being here is purely voluntary. Your freedom to say what you want on this platform is not reduced by flags. Upvotes and downvotes (flags) are both votes on how your post should be rewarded. Referring to it as "authoritarian" cheapens the word. This isn't North Korea.
Flagging sucks and the best improvement I can think of for Steemit would be to make any downvote equal to the average value of all the upvotes.
But I don't think this idea is allowed to be discussed...
Ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....don't try to take authoritarian power away.....
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
That's actually not a bad idea. Though again, in the end the rich will still have power over the poor.
Steemit inc knew how much power they would have when they created these rules and you can be in no doubt they have taken advantage of this when they needed to.
But they are not using their power to chase off psychological terrorists like bernie. If i saw that happening it would be easier to call this place an arena for free speech.
As a long term user and investor in Steemit, I'm far from happy about bullying and flagging, but my way of getting around that is to avoid looking for trouble on my main accounts - we all have different levels of power, and although I have just been doing some unflagging at a level I can change things, this example is way over my head, so I shut up and hide under a rock.
You are right, and I am a fan of yours, as are many people. And if anyone can change things it's you - people are noticing this but saying nothing (as I well know ) - a big thing here is that a lot of people have just watched one of their favourite Steemians gettting censored by a person they are not a fan of and that gets everyones attention.
Avoiding trouble on the main accounts is wise. I was asking for it with my whaleshares post really ;)
And am grateful he has left this one un-flagged.
It is far from a perfect world here yet, but at least we are trying right?
He Is a bully, I read your last post and felt the painbon yoir behalf, sadly a tiny red fish like me can do nothing ..
Posted using Partiko Android
Appreciate your words. I suppose if enough of us tiny red fish club together we have the power to combat the big fish. But this would take a fair amount of effort to organise!