Open letter to those who provide Red Flag with downvotes

in #downvotelast year (edited)

A major flag / downvote war is spreading on Steemit


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Images I use in this post are credit to pixabay.com

Big and small offices use the red flag without warning why they do it
No one should be allowed to give red flag with downvote without explaining it in advance

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What signals will it give to new users?

Just lots of questions they don't know the answers to
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My suggestion for the next Hardfork is

The use of downvote / flagging cannot come until you give a factual reason with warning. And the warnings should then come with a yellow flag
If the warnings are not heeded, it will be possible next time to give the red flag, but even then it must be described why the red flag comes.

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Anyway, you should already enter a field that says you must comment before you can access flag / downvote

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It seems as if the club Red Flag is now growing strongly and has a different agenda than helping to teach others about what steemit is.
When you spend so much time on downvote and flagging
I assume that you also see and read the whole post before giving a downvote.

I'm not against the red flag due to plagiarism
and spam for where it is necessary to give it


I want an explanation from you as to why my posts are flagged / downvoted and answers should come especially from @smooth who also gives downvote to some people I support


Even posts I and others have had about SPUD have been downvoted

But you may not know what SPUD is and see my name attached to it and just give a downvote, it's totally idiotic of you who did it

I expect answers from all of you and explain why you flag / downvoter when it is not spam / plagiarism


@justineh, @therealwolf and @whatsup
is one of the few who says why the flags give a downvote

@smooth @thevil @sospicy @renyd @jertrasoim @grenai @promobot @roadang @likwid @carfemise @rezsad @twosmin @vikeazim @juntre @eonwarped @markkujantunen @joshmania @steempatron @joshman @dr-frankenstein @curangel @downvoteme @steamsteem @termium @okean123 @ticopurelife @ozchartart @zer0hedge @celestal @nickyhavey @acidyo @artopium @znnuksfe @ratna24 @transisto @adsup @ozchartart @lordbutterfly @transisto @dicetime @tagflagger @ctime @deito @hizzy @tygewer @acidyo @michealb @coininstant @lyndsaybowes @jacobtothe @jlsplatts @hizzy @twosmin

That's what I get on the list today, but that's just a small part of it

Have you got an undeserved downvote / flag and no explanation is given
I hope you write a comment about it here

Am very grateful if you all Re-steemed this post so many can understand what is happening with the flag / downvonte nowadays
I hope we comb create a debate about this before we see red flags everywhere




Sort:  

Greetings @xpilar,

Lovely to see you writing about this controversial subject.

Sorry.....but the downvote idea is a terrible one.....if spam is the problem then limit the number of posts, limit the number of accounts. etc.

Downvotes are sucking the lifeblood out of Steemit......a negative experience all around.

Sidenote...it has probably been three years since smooth downvoted bleujay's post.....when I had less than one dollar on the post..... englishtchrivy spoke up for me. hehe

However the same the as it is now....they had an untestesd idea.....they were going to go after who the whales had voted for...as I recall extremely unpopular when just a few were doing it....so now they given everyone the ability.

The point is it is memorable when one is downvoted......rather hard to forget...especially when it is nothing you can correct....you just happen to be in the way of their agenda.

So sorry to see you have been downvoted...it seems none are being spared.

Wishing you all the best.

Cheers from @bleujay.....

Send me a note when sanity has returned. hehe

Principle....There is no reasoning with irrationality.

Thank's for your feedback @bleujay

My opinion is that everyone must be given the opportunity to correct their mistakes, otherwise no one will learn from it.

I also made mistakes here in my start phase in 2016,
but @englishtchrivy took me under his wings and taught me what was right and wrong.

She became my mentor here at Steemit.
This made me teach to those who made mistakes in their startup phase as well.
Imagine if everyone could do the same here at Steemit and in the real world.

But now it seems that everything is just about money here and downvoter even though content is of good quality, yes they have a different agenda

Regards @xpilar

I expect answers from all of you and explain why you flag / downvoter when it is not spam / plagiarism

lol ok. Most of my downvotes are for the number one reason on the downvote list (disagreement on rewards) as well as vote buying.

Think people should explain their upvotes more than their downvotes. that's where i see the most dishonesty.

Thank you for your feedback @michealb

I understand what you mean,
but using flags as revenge will destroy the great platform we have in the long run.

easy, dont revenge flag :)

yes @michealb, great if everyone could do it 👍🙂

100% agree on this, it is almost like now they have eradicated the spam posters the spare downvote power is burning a hole in their Steem account so they are just going after anyone that is posting something they might not particularly like.

It’s a sad regression because for a few weeks after HF21 Trending actually worked and had posts I was interested in. Today it’s back to being the same names over and over that obviously are in a massive Steem power holders circle vote - that nobody dare downvote

If this continues post quality will just keep dropping, because who wants to spend hours creating a post - only for someone to decide they don’t like it so they will remove all the rewards. And with the totally uncalled for downvote trails - the situation is just going to get completely out of hand.

It’s frustrating for me because pre HF21 I reassured many people the Steem blockchain was better then this, and the downvotes would be used to control spam, plagerism and liable content only. More fool me.

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Hi @c0ff33a

Glad to see that you understand what I want to illustrate with my post about downvote, but I'm willing to believe with enough illumination about what's going on now, many who use downvote will see it differently

Therefore, I call for a yellow flag with comment before a downvote can be given. changes here must be made before it goes too far

Lovely to hear your thoughts @c0ff33a,

Agree with your comment in its entirety.

Kind Regards from @bleujay/@bentleycapital.....

Thank you for your service as a witness.

Cheers!

Not everyone is like this.

I try to offer constructive help and will do on anything I downvote moving forward and I think that's where the true power and benefit of the downvote lies in offering constructive criticism.

Sadly, it looks like I'm the only one who was tagged in that list from the original post who is bothering to reply so I'm starting to feel like the exception to this rule.

If I start getting revenge flags, I'd like to think an honest and adult discussion would happen between me and the person who did so we can work it out as that's where progress can be made.

Call me a radical thinker but shouldn't the ultimate aim be to help each other make amazing content that will bring people here and we can all thrive?

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Yes @nickyhavey, it seems that you are the one standing up and explaining why. For that I want to thank you again
I'm sure some more people have seen their own names on the list, but as I say some have a different agenda than what you have.

I could have made that list a long shot, but don't think many will answer. But we have a problem for now comes autodownvote for users where they trust others to provide downvote / flag.
Imagine what can happen when they do not know what they are doing to down vote and not read the post

@xpilar

This is what it should be about for me. People having honest conversations about what can be done to improve a delicate situation. I can't speak for the other users you mentioned as I don't know them really.

Yes I saw the post on trending about the downvote tool from a guy called howo?... I'm not sure that's a great thing and agree with you (I also downvoted it because it was over $100 and didn't agree with that reward which I mentioned). I think we need to be very careful with "bandwagon downvoting".

Maybe I should write a post about it all 😁

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Hi @nickyhavey

I think you should write about it.
Because you see everything from both sides of the table now

Hey @xpilar, I finally managed to get my post out about it and hope you find it useful.

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Hi @nickyhavey

I hope they with another agenda read your post and opened their eyes.

If they could only think like you, the problem would be no problem

Thanks again for the post you wrote

Hey @xpilar

I appreciate the conversations we have had about this all. It really has been an eye opening experience the last 6 weeks.

Keep up the great work with your digital art. I take it you use the #creativecoin tag?

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@nickyhavey

Good on you for nailing your colours to the mast. I find myself a little conflicted or, perhaps, confused. Or both. It seems that some of the proposals are for just another generation of bots - or am I missing something?

I do like the notion of redistribution and until that is understoood (if it ever is), these debates will continue to rage. I also have to say that nine time out of ten, when I upvote a post, I comment on it. As for the downvotes, call me a wuss or perhaps the accounts I follow don't use bots or I'm not sufficiently savvy to identify bid bot abuse. Perhaps I should pay more attention.

Yea well it's come at a cost to my mental health what's happened over the past 3 weeks and I've got a flag from someone who supports xpilar on my two posts as well without any message as to why which is ironic given the situation...

Smart to stay out of it Fiona, I'll see you around 💪

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I think you have been flagged back by them for doing the same. Therefore, I believe that all red flags should also provide a comment when used. So I am very happy that you are now giving a comment when you flag @nickyhavey
If everyone continues without saying why they are flagging someone, this will end up with a giant war

I am sorry about this @nickyhavey. Full upvote for your comment - for what it's worth

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Downvote War is already started and will be growing. As I noticed many just join to downvote trial and in that case you may get downvotes from ten, twenty or even more accounts who actually even do not know why your post is used because they "trust" those people who downvote and give their power for that.

Of course many do manually and some of them read posts, but what makes me skeptic, when those people talk about a circle of friends voting friends and do not like it but that is how community works. Being for few years on Steemit we know those people so well, we know their stories, hobbies, learn their countries and cultures. It is like real good friendship. But those who downvote just come once and do not like such support and downvote. Looking at their account we see that they do the same, there is a circle of the same strong users who all the time supporting each other and their rewards are also shooting high. But they do not bother about it, because they have power.

I absolutely agree, those people who downvote with such powerful accounts should just as a matter of being respectful and polite gesture, just leave a message why it happens so that people may rethink and maybe change something. But without that the Users after being bullied will simply withdraw their Steem and leave the platform and invest in other Cryptocurriencies. That will be the end result of such downvote War.

Hi @stef1

Downvote War is already started and will be growing. As I noticed many just join to downvote trial and in that case you may get downvotes from ten, twenty or even more accounts who actually even do not know why your post is used because they "trust" those people who downvote and give their power for that.

It is scary and already in use

I absolutely agree, those people who downvote with such powerful accounts should just as a matter of being respectful and polite gesture, just leave a message why it happens so that people may rethink and maybe change something. But without that the Users after being bullied will simply withdraw their Steem and leave the platform and invest in other Cryptocurriencies. That will be the end result of such downvote War.

Here we fully agree, and it needs a change so that the system does not scare people, but instead attracts new people

Yellow flag! So now if i need to pull a red you've been warned! lol jk!

Hahaha! The traffic light system of flagging... That's an interesting one!

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Hi @coininstant

Don't you think everyone needs a warning before they are red-flagged.

See you get downvote on your posts. After all, it would be nice to have it cleaned up 🙂

This is really well said

@xpilar, You've come up with prodoctive ideas and definitely these should be implemented because for newbies these kind of situation can lead to Dissapointment and definitely a bad impression for the Ecosystem.

Enjoy your time ahead and stay blessed.

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Re-steemed.

♨ on!

thank you @novacadian

I usually only downvote posts that have been flagged for abuse or authors who are consistantly flagged for abuse. If one person explains no need for everyone to explain. If the person already knows what theybare doing is wrong, no point in constantly reminding them.

I don't see flaggers as a police force or judges. I just see them as concerned authors and curators who want to see organic growth and decent etiquette.
Revenge flagging is the biggest problem

People can tag and ask if flagged or give 1% revenge to get attention. Often they just whine all over the place and start flagging everything at 100%, it is madness.

Hi @abitcoinskeptic

I think we are in agreement

But think that a warning anyway should be there for factual reason.
Then others can also see the warning and the reason for the flagging

But I am afraid of what is happening now with those who use flagging for revenge

I think revenge flagging is the biggest problem. Another issue is it is so simple to avoid, but then the original reason for flagging the person doing the revenge doesn't get resolved.
However, trying to reason does work with most people, so being informative is great as long as at least one person on the post is having the right discussion with the person being flagged.

hi @abitcoinskeptic

so being informative is great as long as at least one person on the post is having the right discussion with the person being flagged.

I totally agree with you

While my name isn't mentioned in your post, given that I've made @lalala's Daily Top voter list yesterday for the Daily top 50 downvoters on October 2nd, I figure it's just a matter of time before I am. 😜

I was considering doing a post about this, but as my offline life is crazy busy at the moment, for now these are my thoughts - I personally think that DVing to return rewards to the pool from over rewarded posts is a good thing. So much so that I'm using @howo's downvote tool to automatically DV anyone that @theycallmedan downvotes, as I trust his judgement in this.

Once I can sit down and focus, I might even add a couple other individuals to my list, as Dan doesn't DV on a daily basis, and I want to use my free DVs as much as possible at this point. I feel we're at a (hopefully positive) tipping point, and I want to do what I can to help.

I agree with @nickyhavey that, "I'm not out to get anyone, just using the reward distribution tools as they were intended." 😊

So far I don't see the reason to put you on the list @traciyork

The list came up because I wanted some answers from those standing there to elucidate a problem

I assume you have read through my entire post because then you have a starting point to evaluate my content.
I mean everyone should read content before giving a downvote / flag for content can be different from the same user and rewards. Just because that person has been on a flag list does not mean he / she deserves the flag once again or if someone rated the merit as high.

If you want to use autodownvote without seeing content on the record be completely wrong
You do not know if the user still deserves to be voted down.

As you can see, my suggestion is to use a comment l flag with warning before you can give a downvote. If someone flags you, you will also want to know what you did wrong so that it can be addressed better next time

Well said @traciyork, if we all use the reward distribution tools as they were intended this place will thrive and encourage great content creation, and give it the rewards it deserves.

I'm not after personal battles or flag wars so will be leaving a comment on anything I choose to redistribute the rewards to 😉

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I think psychology has a lot to do with the problem. In the ideal world the system of flags should work properly, regulating the posts and increasing quality. However, we find out that people flag because they can, because they feel powerful, because they enjoy hurting others and because they have agendas. We have to remember that there is a percentage of humans who are sociopaths (impulsive and disregarding social rules) and another smaller percentage who are true psychopaths who enjoy hurting and taking advantage of people.

I can agree and disagree with you on this. If we look at the bots that throw DV senselessly like camillesteemer or whatever it's called then ya you're right.

But you are wrong to assume this for every person that DV.

The thing is, we are allowing too many posts gain too much with non quality content. Would you agree that a post about a horse talking about it being brown and black, containing a 3 sentence paragraph and two pictures, gain 75$ out of it? Or would you say, this is horse shit and downvote this crap? Those who make good posts deserves good upvotes.

We need to look at our jobs differently to be successful. Not abuse and be greedy. Talk to me about the sunshine and rain and get $100 and for sure youll find me dv-ing. Talk to me about the science of a tornado and make $2 you'll find me upvoting.

I haven't been DV anyone but since all this has come to my attention, I will definitely start. People need to stop being so butthurt over being flagged over a post they took no heart in writing just to get paid. If it's not good work it shouldn't be personal.

☝️ this, all of this!

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I do not assume that all downvoting people are bad agents. I am more concern about the effect. We cannot just ask people, not to be "butthurt", it is a natural reaction.

Hey @marcusantoniu26, for me, the downvoting tool is just as important as the upvoting tool in determining where rewards are distributed.

I have only used that downvote button maybe 10-15 times since HF 21 because I have disagreed with some of the post payouts that have happened. What's the actual harm in that?

Surely it's more harmful to the growth of Steem if we are only upvoting and distributing rewards in one direction for posts?

Not everyone who uses the downvote tool is on a power trip, enjoys hurting others or has an agenda.

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I do not see them as mirrors, just as negative interest rates are not mirrors of positive interest rates. I think there is power in just ignoring the poor quality posts.

You may want to check my latest post (Bluffer's Guide to Steem) as it explains almost everything in non-tech speak. There's some pretty useful comments in there as well and seems to have resonated with the steem community.

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Hi @marcusantoniu26

TThanks for the great feedback

I understand what you are saying and it is part of what is today using the flags,
so I hope a yellow flag with comment line must come first cause the red flag comes with a downvote

That is actually an idea I like, the yellow flag.

Important speach, i am also agree with you..

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I a gree with you. those who give downvote should give the reason. And it's very good if they warn them first, and read the post before down vote.

I do not agree if there are people who give downvote for you. many users here survive and continue to cheer because of you. I dare say that 40% of users here survive and always be excited because of you. Because you keep giving a lot of good here.

You always give a lot of support to other users. and not only support for other users, you also provide support to the steem, as well as provide an illustration to others that steem must be supported. I think it is very unreasonable if there are users who give downvote for you.

Thanks for kind words about me @aulia1993

I want answers because I see a big war going on here and that's not why I'm on Steemit. I'm afraid the flag war is going to destroy the great platform we have

I think so too. I hope they realize this.

Hi @grey580

Use an I message. More communication isn't a bad thing.

Enjoyed that phrase

Your post was good
100% upvote and Re-Steemed from me

Well said. You are right.
I was downvoted huge without warning. I didn't know bot is ilegal. No body told me this before. He also did't warn me. Just downvoted.

How funy

Hi @engrsayful

so they did not say why they gave you a downvote

That is why I want to highlight the problem

When i shall have voting power, i gonna treat them.

good job, have fun

When you go to downvote on steemit, there are reasons that appear for doing it. I always downvote for disagreement with rewards distribution if I do.

I did comment a couple of times but then do you comment every time you give an upvote? If not, why not? When I realised what "upvotes and downvotes" were then they are an equally important tool to help the steem ecosystem.

The way I see upvotes and downvotes now (since the latest hard fork) are ways of distributing rewards and are thus the same. You can either distribute rewards by an upvote if you think something deserves more rewards or you can redistribute rewards back to the pool with a downvote.

Do we go around Facebook asking why every one gives different reactions to a post? Every thumbs up and thumbs down on YouTube, reddit, Spotify etc?

That's my thoughts on it anyway but if we are going to go down the line of asking for reasons for downvotes, then we will need to do the same thing for upvotes.

Thanks for the tag, definitely something that needs to be talked about.

Nicky

Hi @nickyhavey

Well I understood it so you gave a downvote that you think the payment is too high and you probably read the whole post so you are sure your downvote will be correct. It is clearly not done by many others who provide downvote on records. I understand that dirty posts deserve it with spam and plagiarism.

But how do you calculate the values ​​of the downvote do you have a facet to it or is it at your discretion,

The ones I give upvote to are from 5 - 100 Power according to what content is of importance to me on their post as I read

On My own posts, I always give upvote to those who leave a comment and I reply too. It creates coziness and you also make new 🙂

Hey @xpilar, you're right, I do read every post I downvote and if I think it is receiving too high a payment - I just didn't comment on all but I will do now.

Here's my background so you know where I'm coming from. I'm a content creator myself and have been making posts here since March 2018 (travel and music) and have been featured many times by travel curators and picked up 3 or 4 curie rewards. I have never used bid bots myself and each post takes on average between 1-2 hours to write if it's a music post and 5-8 hours for a travel/life one.

I have read a lot of posts from various authors since I've been here of varying standard and by experience, you get to see and learn how much effort someone has put in to a post, the actual quality of the post (style, formatting, flow, readability etc), how informative it is, lessons taught and compare these against the current reward and I make a decision from there as to whether to upvote or downvote. This is for my manual votes. I follow curation trails from manual curation initiatives like c-squared, curie, travelfeed and steemitworldmap as I know they have similar approach.

I'm with you that not everyone does this, seems like some just downvote for the sake of doing but I'm not one of those people and I don't know if anyone else you have tagged has replied offering their points of view.

As I said before, I'm not out to start problems or wars (they are not good for this platform) and I don't work with anyone else on downvoting what I do. In fact I have given downvotes to some of those in your list from the original post!

I hope you understand the point of view I have with it all now and I'm not the enemy here 😁

As for upvoting comments on posts, it's rare to see that now since HF21 pretty much destroyed the rewards on voting comments. Makes it more difficult with more VP needed but kudos to you for that.

See you around 💪

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I want to thank you @nickyhavey very much for responding and highlighting what you are doing on the platform. If everyone did it the way you think, there would be no problems. At the time of writing, not many people have responded from the list I left out. It also shows that someone has a different agenda.

Today there was a red flag on this post and in my opinion it has nothing to do with bad content or the profits are too high. The account that gave me a red flag is very small and has no bearing on my profits or reputation.

But what worries me is that there are many such small accounts that are giving the red flag now. Imagine they have a different agenda and give the red flag to other small accounts that are of good quality, they will have a reputation issue going down instead of going up in reputation

@xpilar

And I want to thank you as well as I have learnt a lot from this discussion and will make sure I give constructive feedback on posts I come across, whether they are from big or small accounts, as I feel it is in our interest to help people grow on this platform (not just financially but skills as well).

As for these little accounts flagging, I know only what I've been told about them but basically, it seems like it's a network of accounts from camillesteemer. She got caught plagiarising a few times when she was uploading non-original music, claiming it as her own and has since been on a downvoting spree on everyone (me included). I remember when I got my first from that group of accounts and yes, it's not nice to see a downvote.

However, they are what I call "shell accounts" and have just left it running on auto pilot so there's no one behind the wheel so to speak. In terms of rewards, they are not doing anything so no need to worry about rewards being removed.

Unfortunately, I don't know what can be done about them other to say to people to ignore them as they don't post anything. Perhaps working with communities like steemterminal that plays a big part in onboarding new folks?

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hi @nickyhavey

And I want to thank you as well as I have learnt a lot from this discussion and will make sure I give constructive feedback on posts I come across, whether they are from big or small accounts, as I feel it is in our interest to help people grow on this platform (not just financially but skills as well).

Thank you

I agree with your opinion

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Yes you are right I agree with you.

Posted using Partiko Android

This is the brother that I agree with on your whole point

Yes ! You are Right...I agree with you.

I agree with you, and I support @xpilar 👍

you're welcome @xpilar 😊

I just got two random downvotes from radang and someone else

Those are like 15 SP accounts and there are many of them, all controlled by one account. All just no power serial down voters,. Poke around their profile, wallet, block chain explorer and you will see them for what they are. Also those down votes are so low powered with no rep to speak of they don't even impact the payout at all.
I've had 4 or 5 of them down vote me, just ignore it or go down vote the one post they may have made and help sent their rep to 0.

Yes @chromiumone , I see that there are many of them and they do not have much power, but it can affect other small accounts with good content and damage their reputation that needs to grow. It may be enough for small accounts to grow not staying here on Steemit. therefore, there should always be a comment with a warning before you can use the red flag.

Hi @teenagecrypto

Yes, it's a shame,
did they say why they gave you dovnwote?

No

Hi @teenagecrypto

Then it would be nice to have a yellow flag with a comet so you could understand why it was done

But they were bot accounts created by someone.

Yes @teenagecrypto , there are several such services that will offer autodownvote to users, it is scary
After all, there will only be another major flag war

This theme of the flags is very delicate, as many give negative votes without explaining, destroying the work of many, the truth this topic scared me so much that sometimes I do not even comment because we do not know who can bother and give a negative vote.

it must change and not be intimidated by giving a voice @teresah

I'm not personally a fan of the flag.. I think I've done it twice.. both times with a explication why.. but when you start monetizing downvoting it just becomes another way to earn money..

I agree with @teresah .. commenting on the wrong post can make you a target

Hi @davedickeyyall

was not aware that it was possible to make money downvote

I thought I read there was a rewards pool for down voting.. part of the latest HF

Hi @davedickeyyall

Steemit FAQ says

Do I get curation rewards for downvoting posts or comments?
No. Since downvoting reduces the rewards on a post/comment, it does not earn curation rewards.

I agree with you, sir. Downvotes must be given after being warned first.

yes @elianaelisma, it must be the right way to do it

I agree with your opinion.

Posted using Partiko Android

You are right, downvotes don't have to be done without a reason.

yes, it must be the right way to do it @rihonkeugata

There is always a reason, even in some cases the reason might be misclick, or less of one than that. Still everyone can vote however they want and If you don't agree, the action you can take is to vote differently yourself.

Very beautiful image, as usual

you have to read the post @sniper555, otherwise I dare you to spam me

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