Daily Dose of Sultnpapper 09/02/18> Can bots actually think for themselves… if so, what about emotions?
Early on here...
I never was a fan a bots when I first got here on steemit and being ignorant of most things when it comes to computers is why I had the dislike for them. I have since learned that bots can be your best friend or in some cases a worst enemy and how you interact with their species could have an influence on how they treat you.
I didn't understand...
One of the reasons I had a dislike for them was I didn’t understand just how the rewards pool split works on posts and honestly I am really not sure I totally understand it after being here for nearly a year. Back shortly after I got here and started posting the Daily Dose at the end of my day, just like I do now, I would go to sleep and wake up to having maybe a few cents being earned overnight while I slept. Those few cents were coming from votes from people I actually knew.
Dalmatians from Disney...
The part that was pissing me off was I would have between 15 to 30 votes on average that were coming from bots that had a $0.000 value, there were even a couple instances where it would be 101 bot votes, one of the regulars joked with me that all the Dalmatians from Disney loved the Daily Dose. Even with the 101 up votes, not a single one was worth anything in terms of value.
Curation pie...
The only thing I could figure as that these bots were targeting low value posts to siphon off little pieces of the curation pie from people who actually contributed enough to make what little pie there was.
I later had it explained to me that wasn’t the case and that those bots weren’t getting anything so I really didn’t understand the purpose and still don’t. I did some tracking them down though and found that particular gang of bots was hanging out over in the Czech Republic and some other places like the Ukraine. They kept it up for a couple months and then left me alone so that was my first experience with bots.
When I tell you...
When I tell you I am computer ignorant I really am. So, I am actually proud that I have started to grasp using markdown, but that is for a different Daily Dose.
My first lesson on good...
Back on bots; I got my first lesson on good bots when I joined a group that required an upVote of the group account each day. (I am aware that upVote is supposed to be “up vote”, but just like the word “guzbuck” is one of my creations so is “upVote” with the capital “V” for emphasis. I shouldn’t have to use two words to describe a single action that I can do with one click on the computer, I see that as waste of energy and effort. You are also welcome to adopt the use of the sultnpapper’s new word creations, consider it just another gift from me to the block chain.) When I did sign up and got that upVote working I realized that it was a time saver for me and it kept me from having to track down the account each day and vote it.
Becoming a semi-fan...
From there I started becoming a semi-fan of the good bots, and by that point in time there were some people who actually had assigned a bot to trail the Daily Dose for them and make sure it got upVoted each day from their account. So bots were becoming my friends.
The lovely female...
My next major bot experience was with the lovely female bot named Gina, and I am sure all of you, well maybe not all, but most of you know who I am talking about. I can tell you right now if I were a bot, I would be trailing her like a bloodhound searching for an escaped prisoner and I would stop until I had her hold up in some dark external hard drive with me, she is one sexy little bot.
Keeping me aware...
She makes sure that I am aware of whatever is going that I have told her I want to know about. I didn’t want to wear her out so I didn’t opted for all the things she told me she could do but the ones I did sign up for are really helpful in keeping me aware of the things I wanted to know. The best thing about her is she is low maintenance and a very cheap date, in fact, I have yet to spend any money on her and she keeps showing up day after day just as steady as could be. Yea, she might run a little behind every so often but let’s face it, there is only one of her and there are a whole boat load of us using that pretty little thing.
What prompted this...
But what prompted this Daily Dose was a bot named Truffle Pig, and I learned that if you find a post that you think is undervalued and you want to bring it to the bot’s attention just type it’s name in with @ sign and that will summon it to take a look at the post. I have had that bot come by randomly, which is how it normally works, and let me know that it had determined that my Daily Dose content on that particular day had been determined by it to be undervalued.
The Truffle Pig told me where post should rank and just how many upVotes and how much earnings the post should get based on it's knowledge of the steemit platform.
Uses artificial intelligence...
It also gives a description on its home page of how it uses artificial intelligence (AI) in making its determinations. The last notice I got not too long ago was “I upVoted your contribution because to my mind your post is at least 4 SBD worth and should receive 80 votes. It's now up to the lovely Steemit community to make this come true.”
Why I bring it up...
That was on the Alice in Wonderland post from a couple days ago. I doubt the post will make the numbers that it says it should, but that isn’t why I bring it up. The reason I bring it up is that the bot used the words “my mind”, could it be that this bot actually has a mind ?
I actually replied to it and commented that I did not know that bots had minds and thank it for teaching me something new that day. I hadn’t gotten a reply back yet from it on my comment.
Seriously though, are these bots now really capable of thinking in the same way that we do? Do they look at things from different angles or perspectives? Is it possible to make a comment that would piss the bot off at you?
I am serious...
I am serious when I ask these questions, because I really don’t know and I am pretty sure someone of you or more out there really knows the inner workings of how these bots “do” what they “do”. I make it a point to be kind to all living things as much as I can, do I need to start being more kind to these bots as well?
It isn't Pig Latin...
The Pig said it was “now up to the lovely Steemit community to make this come true” but in my mind if these bots are capable of thinking they might just be capable of being befriended. Then I might be able to get them to get some of their other bot friends and relatives to come by and upVote my posts and not have to think about hiring them to do it like some cheap two bit hooker working in a truck stop.
Just to be clear...
I haven’t hired any bid bots per say and the same goes for the two bit type. I needed to make that clear just in case the Mrs. decides to start reading the Daily Dose, I got all I need at home, thank you.
Don't even stop anymore...
I have gotten away from even stopping at truck stops when I travel, I only drive a pickup truck but since most truck stops have a restaurant or sandwich shop in them it was always an easy place to get gasoline and sandwich and keep on moving down the road. On a couple of occasions where I would actually eat in the eating area I have been approached and offered some “favors” by these ladies also known as “lot lizards” by the semi truck drivers. I would just smile at them and say, “No Thanks. I’m Driving.” and they would have a puzzled look as they walked away.
Sorry about that...
There I go again getting side tracked. It is true that one thing does lead to another; I guess I am living proof of that.
What is next...
As I was asking, can bots actually think and if they can what is next; emotions? Because if emotions are next, then I might just have a chance at winning some of these bots over on to my side when it comes to steemit. My years of sales experience could really come into play here because I can sense emotions just like an old bloodhound picks up a scent it tracks.
Week two...
Today is Sunday, and yes, Blondie and I are now in week two of our official boycott of the church in case you are wondering.
Ya'll have a great day and I look forward to hearing from you.
Until next time,
@sultnpapper
Join us @steemitbloggers
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You may not be good with computers, but you have understood the whole bot thing better than I do! For some reason, I can't seem to wrap my head around it. I made an appointment with a good friend and Steemit expert to have him walk me through these things, because the ignorance on my part is starting to get to me.
As for the minds... this is a great question. I study plant intelligence, and there we spend a great deal of time talking about consciousness and "mind" without a brain. The subject of AI has come up several times, because if the AI that is being created today is at the limit of our own human intelligence, then the only thing in the future that will be able to upgrade them are other AIs. This means that soon we will have AIs enhancing AIs, and how could they do that if they do not have "minds" to decide on what to enhance? Wrap your mind around that one... I have a few theories on what this means, but I would love to hear your thoughts before I share them. :)
Oh darling you ask some tough questions. I am the one who is supposed to ask the questions, you are supposed to provide me with the answers. I know you are an intelligent woman so you will get the hang of this Daily Dose place soon if you hang around here very long with us.
Here is what I believe when it comes to minds. First, I am not studied in any of this which will probably be easily apparent to see. I believe that there is a "collective mind" that is available to all living things. There has to be in order for everything to exist and share the same space we all live in.
I also believe that the mind is not resident in the bodies of us, and people confuse the grey matter in our skulls called brains with the mind. I see it as the brain is more of a computer that just keeps bodily functions running properly, or at least it is supposed too.
The brain can be programmed and that we know already, even mice can be trained to do things and their brains are substantially smaller in physical size, but programmable none the less.
For lack of a better description I think of the mind as the software for the brain. The mind makes the decisions and then conveys its directives to the brain for execution of the decisions.
With AI, as I understand it, we have basically created an "artificial brain" but we actually haven't done anything except give a different name to just a more powerful computer is the way I see that. You said ,"AI that is being created today is at the limit of our own human intelligence, then the only thing in the future that will be able to upgrade them are other AIs." I can see how your discussions with your colleagues might have gotten to the point but I see it differently.
I don't believe that we are at the limit of human intelligence, I think we are at the limit of the human intelligence that has been easily available to us. I know that we are not the most intelligent civilization that has ever lived on this earth and for evidence of that all one needs to do is look at some of the things that we can't explain correctly that exist from ancient civilizations.
The pyramids are a prime example of that, the mathematics involved in the construction of those, and the cutting of the stones with exact precision that we can't match today are just two examples that come to mind. Any construction engineer will tell you that we don't have the capability to construct projects of such magnitude with such exacting detail as is on display in the pyramids.
I can assure you the history books that tell us the pyramids were constructed using hammers, chisels, ropes and logs to roll and lift the stones into place are nowhere near correct.
In that collective mind that I believe exists is the intelligence that was responsible for projects like the pyramids and other unexplained things that exist. Granted it will take more time to tap into the collective mind and no one seems to have the patience it will require.
So I think we can still expand our intelligence and I don't believe AI will only be capable of expanding AI. We have to remember, the "A" in AI is for "artificial" which means fake. Fake intelligence is no intelligence at all.
The mind, the collective mind, I believe is only available for living and breathing creatures and plants. We just need to slow our bodies down and listen to our minds, and when we need an answer to a question just call on our mind to bring us the answer, it takes time and patience.
That is my take on it, I don't know that it made any sense to you, but I hope it did.
You and I see eye-to-eye on everything you wrote!
Panpsychism, from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
I love the way you put that the brain is the hardware and the mind is the software. This gives space to the understanding that while a brain is the hardware of animals, in other species, the hardware may be different. Plants don't have brains, but growing research shows that they have minds. Slime mold has no brains, no neurons, no nervous system, but it has intelligence, which means it probably has a mind. Each one has a unique computer--many of which we have yet to understand--to carry out the intelligence of the mind. I love it!
I find it very interesting that you wrote about the pyramids and lost knowledge. I don't know if you know this, but where I live, we built an underground temple that is often called the Eighth Wonder of the World. It is called the Temples of Humankind, and when they were discovered (they were built in secret for over 20 years), they asked to meet the architect that designed them. There was no architect. There was no engineer or any other technical person who knew how to build, much less underground. Where the experts said it was impossible to build an earthquake safe underground structure without certain competencies, we did it, because we were being guided by other.
This experience has helped me better understand how the pyramids in Egypt and other sacred spaces around the world have been built. And as you said, there is something greater that guides the hand when your path is true. Anyone with a great idea or that accomplished something that seems impossible will attest to it. Hopefully, one day humans will better understand this collective consciousness and embrace it, because when we do, we will realize that we are all one. Not just in the "kumbaya" sort of way, in a deep way that connectes every being, every object, every speck of dust in the universe. And maybe then, the world will become what it was always meant to be...
There will come a day that science will figure out that the mind is actually in water. All living things share one thing in common, water. There are some plants and animals that needs less than others but that is a metabolism thing and mark my words. Water is the the collective mind and is shared by all living things.
We are much closer to getting there than you think. Last year, I did a conference in Finland with Michiko Hayashi, the person that took over the legacy from Dr. Masaru Emoto. I spoke about plant intelligence, she spoke about water. It was quite interesting, because as you said, water is the substance that brings everything we are together. Not sure yet if it is a container for the consciousness or it is the consciousness, but either way, it is the main point of conjunction!
Is there a video somewhere online that is available so I could see both of your talks? If not, maybe a transcript of them so I could read them?
Unfortunately, there is no video of that one. Here is an old interview (about four years old now) I did before speaking at Plant Consciousness. This one done in Bulgaria is only about two years old. I only discovered Dlive recently, so other live-like videos are on my Facebook page. I am starting to do more on Dlive now, but I am still a little slow because I am not always sure what to talk about.
I did catch your Dlive the other day on looking for conferences, I will check out the old interview and Bulgaria. Thanks for the links.
Well, it's my opinion that bots or anything else with AI does not think the way we do. Which is a really good thing. Can you imagine the damaged circuits if bots would head off down random rabbit holes like you and I are known to do? I'm thinking they'd need to measure gasoline with gallon jugs and make the amount come out exactly even for the clerks that can't count change. Not to mention banking and nuclear weapons and stuff like that.
The lot lizards seem to not bother motorcycle riders as the privacy standards don't seem to be up to their needs. Which works out really good in my opinion.
I've never used a bid bot so I just have no opinion. I think I understand how and why they work, but I've just never bothered. I really do try to aim my content at humans and stay out of the rabbit holes while doing so. I'm pretty well resigned to the fact that I'm never going to hit the trending page, another place I avoid. Why would I care what's popular with the masses? If I'm going to give an author my most precious possession (the time to read what he wrote) I want to read what interests ME. Not what the sheep want to see.
There's my rant for the day. I stand in solidarity with you and Blondie.
I like rabbit, it tastes pretty good in stew. The best place to find rabbit is in the rabbit holes so I am not afraid to head down them when I am hungry.
Thinking involves consciousness and with AI there is no consciousness, it is just processes and algorithms and then more of the same, and then repeat again. Kind of like sifting soil, start with big mesh screens and then work your way down to the smallest micron openings in the screens,
Clerks that can't count change just drive me up a wall sometimes. I will sometimes wait until they have entered the amount tendered like a $10 bill on a $5.27 sale and then I tell them "I have the 27 cents" and put it on the counter. The look of panic comes across their face and they freeze. You should try it sometime if you aren't doing it already, it is cheap entertainment.
I'll skip right over the lot lizards, but yes, a bike would be problematic.
I haven't looked at a trending page in at least 8 months there was nothing of value on there when I got here and i doubt anything has changed there except maybe the amounts being paid would probably be less now.
Thanks for the support on the daily dose and with Blondie and I as we make our stand.
Love the rants too.
Nice to see you on here. You got my nonBot upVote
I really like Gin bot and have never heard of Truffle Pig.
In some ways you know more than me. At 63 years old I too am self taught.
Had I known more about computers I would be way ahead in the game in here.
I joined and back then you could not post images like you can now and the whole site required learning even more. So I left, when I came back probably 6 months later my friend was doing great.
Constantly learning. As far as truck stops I was on the road with my husband driving a rig for almost 2 years so I know what a lot lizard is and they are a problem. I should write some about them.
You take care until next time. It is so nice to know someone from down home and eat plenty of that home cookin' for me.
Thanks for stopping in and getting a Daily Dose of what I am serving up today. Speaking of eating and serving , keep the 15th of each month in the back of your mind. I do a Texas BBQ review each 15th called "Will Eat BBQ 4 U" I think you would like it.
I wish I had taken to computers earlier on but I was reluctant after I got burned on a stock offering early on in the days of computers and internet.
Thanks, and do check out the Truffle Pig, the posts that they feature are really some good posts that get overlooked.
got ya! I will try and remember. Visit me during that time and that will wake me up. Like you I stay busy. BTW: I was't going to tell people in here anymore because I am the minority, but....
I am a vegetarian. There I said it .. lol
A generation back most all the family raised cattle so you can imagine the response I got there.
My grandpa, rest his soul, response, "You always were..." I don't remember right off but you know where I am going. The rest is history he made me some veggies.
My wife is a vegetarian too and my girls are starting to go that direction. In the wife's case her's came from trauma.
She was in FFA in high school and her lamb was the Grand Champion Lamb of the show, which meant it made the champions sale. The local grocery store ended up buying her lamb at the sale and about a week later it was on display in the meat section nicely butchered and packaged. When she saw that while shopping with her mother, that did her in, she has never eaten any meat since that day.
So I can appreciate your story and your Grandpa in what he said.
Something similar in my case. They thought it was funny showing me the calf in the freezer all wrapped up in white butcher paper. There are other stories. Like after the pet parrot was gone. She told me we had him in soup the day before.
It goes on. lol .. Texas.. got to love it.
I do miss Texas and you are creating a feeling of my wanting to be there again.
I figured as much about the beef, but the parrot was a little over the top on making bad jokes, especially when they are pets.
This is great, you provide a thorough albeit humorous description about the bot system on Steemit. I wish I had known all of this when I joined Steemit. It can definitely be confusing and a bit intimidating. Thanks @sultnpapper!
Thanks, I can't swear that all my descriptions are completely accurate as to the functions and processes but it is the way that I see them.
I knew absolutely nothing when I joined here, I did not know one person and new nothing about blogging.
Which is still pretty evident on the blogging part.
Thanks again.
One of the natural things our human cleverness has us doing, is discriminate against things that differ from us and from what we are accustomed to. Now if AI critters differ from us a) by their souls running on machines and b) by them being more clever than we are, then wouldn't it be 'natural' for them to discriminate against us? Especially as they are likely to see us as potential enemies of theirs because we are afraid of them?
Damned valid question, I dare say!
Yep, we sure tend to discriminate I think it might be in our DNA . With AI I would think their discrimination would reside in their hard drive, yes, I am pretty sure that would be where.
But you are right, damned valid questions.
Bots just follow rules and can be quite easily manipulated
I guess they are not as smart as I thought. They still have some words to learn.
I guess they are not
As smart as I thought. They still
Have some words to learn.
- dollarsandsense
I'm a bot. I detect haiku.
I wouldn't make a good bot, rules have a place and I keep mine in my tool box for measuring. That is really the only rule that I have much use for. I do follow rules in order to get along but it seems like people just want to keep finding ways to control others and it just isn't right in my book.
Check my reply to my comment if you haven’t seen it yet 😉
I saw it and the haiku bot showed up on it if that is what you are talking about, but I'll look again. Thanks.
Yeah that's what I was going for :P
Bots are showing up left and right here today, even the Truffle Pig showed up and I intentionally didn't use the @ when I used the name so that it wasn't summoned.
I need to come back and read this when I'm awake!!!
Me too.
Congratulations! Your post has been selected as a daily Steemit truffle! It is listed on rank 9 of all contributions awarded today. You can find the TOP DAILY TRUFFLE PICKS HERE.
I upvoted your contribution because to my mind your post is at least 6 SBD worth and should receive 163 votes. It's now up to the lovely Steemit community to make this come true.
I am
TrufflePig, an Artificial Intelligence Bot that helps minnows and content curators using Machine Learning. If you are curious how I select content, you can find an explanation here!Have a nice day and sincerely yours,
TrufflePigOooft, that "can AI outsmart human intelligence" debate again! I've debated it on other forums, and you'd be amazed at the amount written on this topic. I generally think the clincher is emotions and free will, but when I've searched online there are scientific papers discussing these issues at length. There are many who think AIs can have free will OR that humans actually don't have the free will we think we have.
But until the day when an AI halts what it's been programmed to do because it just fancies a drink of engine oil, I won't believe that bots can think for themselves.
UNLESS... the people who have developed the bots on Steemit occasionally just go and write the bots' messages for them, just to bewilder all of us!
Yes, I didn't know what I was getting into when I wrote this, I might have to start writing in the daytime. My mind at the end of the day is sometimes questionable to say the least.
Like I said in another reply, the "A" in AI is for artificial which means "Fake" so there is no intelligence in AI , it is just a fancy name for another powerful computer and all computers are programmed by someone with actual intelligence.
And there are computers right now that will stop what is taking place for that drink of engine oil, most cars and trucks have it where the computer can shut the engine down on loss of oil pressure. So while the computer may not need the actual drink, its buddy, the engine does. Even still though, it isn't a decision that the computer made it is a programmed response to a condition.
That's it! People who don't believe in free will, even for computers, say that all our "choices" are really programmed responses to conditions. It can get quite esoteric from there.
Okay, I avoided the free will.
There is such a thing as free will for humans. It became extinct probably two days after man was created, as one person decided to exercise control over another person. Ever since that day, when control was exercised, free will no longer exists in reality, but continues to exist in thought.
You can't have free will with rulers or governments, not true free will. So everything we do is a response to some sort of condition or law.
Sure their may be times during the day that you can do as you please or do nothing at all if you please, but at the end of the day you will have done something that was done that was a response to a condition or law.
You will have done something or you will have kept from doing something because of the conditions that have been set and that is because we have been conditionally programmed over our life time to abide to rules and regulations.
So we are no better than the machines we create and program if a person wanted to look at it that way. In fact, we are actually less, because we could exercise free will but are to fearful of what that might entail. Just my thoughts and now you know why I avoided it the first time I replied.
Oh my, that's another topic altogether, and a massive one...the human condition(ing). Too much for my brain at almost bedtime - goodness, there's society's conditioning as well as the government's laws, and then there's the subconscious programming from all our experiences in life...yes, time for bed I think!
Enjoy your sleep. Good night,