Steem Survey: Should The Posts That Have Used Bidbots Be Moved to the Promoted Tab?steemCreated with Sketch.

in bidbot •  10 months ago 

Let’s take a survey.

If you think the posts that have paid a bidbot to be boosted should be moved to the Promoted Tab, please reply “Yes” in the comments.
(This would apply to any post that has even one paid bidbot boost.)

If you think posts that have paid a bidbot to be boosted should continue to just be shown on the Trending page, please reply “No” in the comments.

If sufficient support and data shows demand for a change then a dApp owner could easily create a new sorting based on user demand.

Let’s see what everyone’s opinion is.
Voice your opinion below.

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Yes, yes, yes, 1000 times yes. I have brought this up many times but since I am a nobody I get told it is stupid and basically to piss off.

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Everyone counts actually. Mass adoption is only possible when a platform is a good experience for 98% of people not 2%.

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Yes. Bidbots post are promoted posts, hence it should be where it belongs. Trending posts should be the posts truly loved by the community not some half cooked post..

yes, although it will require lists of bidbots, but yes. I think @heimindanger made one steem frontpage w/o bidbots the other day. Or at least you can see what posts are upvoted / using bidbots actually: https://steemit.com/steem/@heimindanger/operation-clean-trending (and then you can even downvote them: https://steemwhales.com/clean-trending/ )

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Ah, thanks, I’m not asking for any downvote or anything of the sort. Just an admission of the reality that indeed bidbot posts are the definition of Promoted and are therefore in the wrong page. It can be fixed easily with code. Flags are not necessary.

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If people would flag the crappy ones, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

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Great news

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No.

It would be nice but it will not work to fix the trending tab at all. I do not think there is a fix possible. If bidbots are removed from the trending, then people are going to complain that it is only vote trail post that make it on trending, Some trails are very long, does that make a post that gets regular vote trail votes that much better than one that does not? They can and do play favorites, many of them are automated and the people that belong to them have no clue at all what they are voting on.

Can we exclude vote trails from the trending? Do they have any higher quality than non vote trails? The reason for banning vote bots is why? Because they don't reflect quality content? It's a slippery slope when we start "banning" for any reason. What would be banned next? Meme's again? YT videos, even though they all have share buttons? Wiki page references?

Yes.

The problem is bigger than that though. We need to manually curate again to fix the trending pages. Even if bid-bot-posts where to be excluded from the trending pages, we'd still get tons of articles sitting in trending due to voting trails.

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Baby steps... just wanted to get an idea what people are thinking..

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I hear you.

I think that most of the existing users on Steemit ignores the trending page, as we all know it's bogus. However, new people on the other hand, doesn't realize when they arrive the first time, and that is extremely misleading. New users would ultimately write and publish one or two articles and expect tons of rewards, and when they quickly realize that they don't earn more than some dust at best, they will leave. Steemit have a huge user retention problem, which have been ignored for too long, and I'd personally say that false or inaccurate advertising from well-known Steemians and the trending pages are the two biggest reasons for that.

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There are some solutions coming watch my latest video part 2.

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To me this is MORE important than the bidding bots. We need active stakeholder curating with both upvotes and downvotes, the rest will take care of its self.

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Actually the incentives are misaligned. Moving bidbot posts to Promoted would disincentivize people from using them, since they’d be ignored. Then only the fittest bidbots would even survive, or they’d die off completely....and then we’d have a new void to fill: New Projects for mass adoption that give whales good ROI..

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I don't have an incentive to put them out of business. I remember all too well how it was before them. I want them to stay, just not be so dominating.

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Forget about whales curating. Whoever marries mass adoption dApps with good ROI for SP delegation will do well. Scammy bidbots will fall.

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Oh, I am sure our whales will not curate. I, single handedly have gotten users who were posting shit to trending to take it down a notch or two. I leave a friendly note explaining what I like and dislike about the post. I know it doesn't get you a number one spot on an application, but it matters.

Stop acting powerless and use your stake to shape the site. Not just you, but all of the active users.

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I am believe me I’m working behind the scenes now

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Yeah. Move the posts that have reached the trending pages with bidbots, make room for a more natural trending page and get people to manually curate again. Seems like easy steps, but I guess we'll see those changes in a year.

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I hate to say it but as long as people are making money I don't think any of these things will happen.

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It's sad, but you are probably right.

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@hitmeasap,

"Great curation" is every bit as important to the blockchain as is "great content creation." They are two sides of the same coin. And "great creation" means "manual creation." There's a place for curation-bots ... in support of manual curators.

@stellabelle's got a point though ... baby steps. One step at a time. Nothing kills manual curation faster than corrupting Hot & Trending. I'm writing an article on it as we speak.

Quill

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Bid bots killed the purpose of manual curation. Even newcomers with minimal Steem delegates to bid bots in an attempt to earn passive income. People are lazy in general, and people are looking for shortcuts. That's why they delegate even though they would earn more from manual curation.

People lack knowledge and understanding. They're just focusing on the money.

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Agree with you that’s why smarter incentives are needed and worked on now

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Sadly, no.

I agree with inertias comment about buying votes for the posts of others to 'hide' them in promoted. That's not gonna end well.

The same big stake authors would appear each day with very little change - their votes are earned via the same people.

Personally I think 'Trending' should be renamed to 'Adverts' or 'Promoted', and the failed Promoted link be discarded.

Thinking out loud, dangerous on 3 hours sleep, but what about a UA score backed 'Popular' as the gateway page?

Trending aside, I'm hoping the new community developments and alternative front ends bring in methods to find and manage displays. 'Toggle bot posts' on/off.

I wrote about this a few months back, but sending bot posts underground won't send them out of business imo, as long as there is money to be made, the delegations and bids will keep on coming. New methods for larger stakeholders to make money need to be invented, this could help reduce the BBs influence.

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Yes you’re right

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Personally, I would like to see a new tab. It could be called Community Favorites, Engaging or Most Active.

The algorithm would be a combination of most unique votes and comments, with stake of any kind factored out. It would be a compilation of what posts are moving and getting people talking.

The rest of it can stay as is. I don't mind if they make a switch, but I would rather see enhancements and new ways to find things.

In addition, moving bots to promoted would not take into consideration accounts like the Sweetsssj and the circle jerkers. Which is why I would like to see a new addition instead. If it is straight yes or no, my answer is no.

Definitely YES.

I’d like to see on trending page only what the community voted as a trend. And not the exact opposite. I don’t judge those services. In fact there are cases that really important posts would have been buried if it wasn’t for bots.

Absolutely yes, they should be moved to promoted. Posts that have been paid to be pumped up to a higher position or rank, as it were, are by the very definition of the word....promoted

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LOL 😂 💡

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Yes, most definitely. They are not in fact trending.

Yes as long as you classify ranchorelaxo as a bidbot.

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😂

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a) All this would do is cause some bid bots to be more stealthy by registering/delegating more rapidly.
b) Would you ignore bids paid for by someone other than the author?

In the case of a), there will be plenty of bid bots that don't worry about it because the already try to sell ROI, so the author doesn't care where the post is seen.

In the case of b), if someone wants to take a post off of trending, just pay for a bid. But if payor/author are intentionally ignored, what would prevent two authors from paying for the other's posts?

By the way, both a) and b) are examples of sybil, just manifest in different forms.

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Nope, it doesn’t matter who pays for the promotion, all paid Posts from bidbots would be in their natural home: Promoted Tab. Simple yes or no.

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Right, as I said. All I have to do if I don't like someone on trending is pay 0.001 STEEM to a bidbot so they're moved over to the paid posts list that everyone will ignore. Brilliant.

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.001 won’t get you most of the bidbots... if you want to pay several Steem to hate on someone..... that’s on you.

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I thought it was a simple yes or no. Now you're setting a threshold. "All paid posts" doesn't mean all. They pay a certain amount, then they're off trending. What's the amount? Sounds like this is getting complicated already.

Or are you saying that merely transferring an amount isn't what filters a post out of trending. It's just the fact that a bitbot happened to vote.

So that just means these bidbots have the power to move everything they don't like out of trending just by voting for it.

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You have no idea of the effect of this change. You’re only guessing and your own self-interest is baked into your opinion. My end goal is mass adoption, what’s yours?

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My main goal is to get people excited about the platform so that they implement great new projects that are so good, they bring their own stake to power up their awesome projects. Mass adoption just happens on its own after that.

  ·  10 months ago (edited)

Yes...

Posted using Partiko Android

No

Yes, to have a better trending page!

It’s a serious question.

Posted using Partiko iOS

I'd much rather see the promoted tab go away and every 5th post that shows up, regardless of feed or tag, be a promoted post that required someone to burn SBD to promote it.

@stellabelle,

YES.

Personally, I think bidbots should be banned outright, as explained in my proposals (link) but this is an EXCELLENT 2nd choice.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@quillfire/central-premise-and-proposals-a-series-about-fixing-steemit-part-4

Bidbots have become, largely, unprofitable to use in-and-of-themselves. Their use is motivated by the desire to get into Hot & Trending to gain additional exposure, and hence, additional upvotes. Such rankings are also meant to attract the attention of curation-bots that scan such Pages.

By removing them from Hot and Trending, you remove the economic incentive of using them (Demand). Moreover, as bidbots require a critical mass of users to remain profitable, a diminishment of users would undoubtedly cause many bidbot owner/operators to close shop (Supply).

The only fly in the ointment is that, to be effective, most of the UI's would have to agree to this implementation ... and a lot of bidbots (and UI's) are owned and operated by Whales and Witnesses.

And hence, my more "insistent" proposal that they be banned outright, and the creation of an independent enforcement system to ensure compliance ... the adoption of which, of course, would also require Whale/Witness support. Arrgh. :-)

In either case, we'd need to start a movement! I'd like to see a referendum ... one person, one vote (not stake-weighted) about some basic blockchain reforms. If there was super-majority support and the Whales and Witnesses ignored it, they'd be committing Steemicide.

In the next couple of months, a number of competitive crypto-social-media platforms will be going live and Steemit will finally have to start competing for users. Ignoring the wishes of the masses ... is an excellent way to become mass-less.

Quill

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Hahahahaha well there are dApp developers who are neither whales nor witnesses. They will be true disruptors of Steem. You should also take a peek into UA as that is a healthy initiative too

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No. But I think the "Trending" tab should not be the first to show up. Swapping "Promoted" and "Trending" would be very good. Promoted posts do get their promotion funding returned to the reward pool, afterall.

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Well the posts using bidbots have paid for promotion. The existing Promoted Tab is a colossal failure. No one even glances at that. Might as well call Bidbotted posts what they are in reality: PROMOTED

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the posts using bidbots

This by itself proves they shouldn't be on the promoted page. They are fundamentally different. Bid bots offer visibility and profit in a negative way to the platform, while the promotion button...

I've turned my lengthy answer into my own post.

Sir, how will we benefit from this steem survey?

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I’m not a sir.

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😂

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:-)

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I am sorry!

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Is this a serious question? Do "we" have to benefit from everything? It is data collection, maybe something comes of it, maybe it doesn't but at least an effort was made to collect and present the data.

As for how YOU benefit, which I believe is what you really meant to ask, if all posts that have bid bot votes on them are moved to the promoted tab, then the trending tab becomes what really got organic votes to be popular... well, plus everything haejin self votes on.

This means you have a better chance of getting to trending without having to save and spend a fortune on bid bots. But you know... no one looks at trending anyway, so it probably won't benefit you at all.

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I’m thinking of discoverability of engaging content for reading purposes plus we will need room for the Organic Trending Page which will save Steem from doom and MySpace. Getting the retention rate of new users and eventual mass adoption is the end goal.

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How quickly you forget.... Or maybe you didn't experience it the way many of us did.

Prior to the voting bots there were a select few who all voted each other first and sometimes a few others. There was absolutely no way to get visibility for unknown users, projects that wanted to get visibility, etc.

Currently, anyone can put their post on trending for the community to discover. If it is bad, it can be flagged. Those who are upset are mostly comprised of those who were a part of the select few and those who weren't here to see what it was really like.

The probem isn't the voting bots it's the lack of curation with both up and down votes.

Yes, without a doubt!

There are big players as well as small players of bid bots. Using Bidbots is kind of advertising for the post. I believe there should be a scale ..50 $ and above post should goes to promoted while the small junkie who get happy with few chunks through bid bot should be ok to keep in normal page.....just my thought @stellabelle

Posted using Partiko Android

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Good ideas

Posted using Partiko iOS

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Thanks...it will keep the big user in different zone and the small user at diffetent. Many new user who joins use bidbot of smaller value...that keep them motivated

Posted using Partiko Android

Yes!

I'd also suggest that posts which don't use bidbots get a nice logo next to them, similar to how posts that are set to receive rewards with 100% steem power get a blue steem logo next to them. Alternatively, the headlines of promoted posts could be grayed out or shrunk down relative to how much of their upvote comes from a bidbot.

Quick and dirty: yes.

Yes.

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How to deal with those bad actors who maliciously pay a bidbot so that their enemy’s post gets kicked off the trending page and into Promoted Page?

Posted using Partiko iOS

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I think most people would not pay a lot of fees to hate

Posted using Partiko iOS

Yes

Yes, I think that posts that use bid bots should be listed under the promoted tab. But what I would also do is reorder how they are listed. Put the posts that promote in order of lowest price paid first. These will most likely be the people who are truly trying to promote their work, instead of people in it to to reap all the rewards.

Posted using Partiko Android

Fuck yes!

Yes yes,bidbot promotes are the promoted posts,

Yes

Posted using Partiko Android

is this a tricky question? ;)

Move to: bidvoted. Or be ignored.

Posted using Partiko Android

Yes - Its a paid "promotion", so the post belongs in the appropriate category.

I will say yes to show my disdain of bots. But maybe overlaying an advert logo on their thumbnail may be another solution.

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Hi @stellabelle!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 7.134 which ranks you at #74 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has not changed in the last three days.

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 325 contributions, your post is ranked at #2. Congratulations!

Evaluation of your UA score:
  • Your follower network is great!
  • The readers appreciate your great work!
  • Great user engagement! You rock!

Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server

Yes... that’s a great idea.

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Could you contact @net to make this change ?

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We would have to create a community movement that the witnesses support or the dApps could decide to do this

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Posts that use bidbots should not be included in Hot, or Trending.

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