Dear fundamentalist dipshits that think charging interest for loans is immoral, fuck you.steemCreated with Sketch.

in banking •  3 months ago

Dear readers,

I know that most of you, I'm sure 98%+ are completely fine with what I do..but there are always those few crazy people out there..

Most notably, @nutritree, who has been flagging me, a flag war he started by the way, and his buddy @fulltimegeek, religious nuts, the both of them.

@fulltimegeek is the flat earther that thinks I'm evil for charging interest on my loans, because my time is worth nothing apparently. I just spent an hour doing loans this morning, fuck me right. I should be working for free, according to fulltimegeek. It's enraging.

Why are you so angry Neoxian?

Let me paint a picture for you...


(badly photoshopped picture of farmers I found on the web)

Can you imagine, walking up to these farmers, sweaty, muddy, tired from the back breaking labor, and saying something like "Waahh, you evil farmers, why are you charging money for your food? Think of all the starving children out there, everyone needs food! My religious text says you are immoral for doing do."

The only sane response would be anger, or at least scorn and derision.

Ok fine, obviously the work I do is no where near as difficult as what those farmers above do, but it's still work, I spend hours each day, going over books, dealing with customers. And there is a real risk in what I do. I get defaults, plenty of defaults, where I'm left holding the bag on an account that worth much less when what I loaned out. Sometimes I wonder if I make a profit at all.

I have depositors, people that have entrusted me with their hard earned money and I have to respect them by getting off my ass and making money for them, you know, like how Banks are supposed to work?

You charge too much for your loans Neoxian!!

Maybe I do..maybe I don't. If you really feel this way, nothing is stopping you from charging less or even no interest on loans to the general public. Show me how it's done, bigshot. Undercut me, put me in my place. So far, no has done so.

To be honest, I'd love some competition, someone who could put me out of business by loaning faster, cheaper and more efficiently I do. Then maybe I could finally take a break, rest assured that good banking is alive on the blockchain.

I just helped a guy out with a loan this morning. He was in a jam and had no one else to turn to, but I was there for him. Where were you @fulltimegeek? Too busy smelling your own Holier-then-thou farts.

@fulltimegeek tells me "I assure you all my loans have been interest free."

Whoopdie-fucking-doo, congrats, you made a handfull of loans out to friends and family that you have known for years (correct me if I'm wrong), and you didn't charge them any interest (but I'm sure you got other favors back.)

I can promise everyone, that the average needy person on this blockchain hasn't a chance of hell of getting a loan from @fulltimegeek (interest or no). But at least, you might get one from me (much much higher chance anyways).

You Cannot Reason People Out of Something They Were Not Reasoned Into

I know there is no reasoning with people like @nutritree and @fulltimegeek, I just needed to get this post off my chest. If they respond at all, I'm sure it will be with bible quotes (yep I'm an atheist, I don't give a fuck), and they will say how I'm preying on the weak or other such bullshit. Whatever you bible thumping fucktards, neither of you are going to stop my banking or drive me off the blockchain.


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@neoxian,
They are just spammers, so never mind it! Your money, your loan contracts! If we like to accept them, yeah it's okay!

Cheers~

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Do you even know the definition of spam?

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Your photos and descriptions make us laugh. I'd never borrow from you although I wish you had some sort of investment/interest scheme for depositers. But haters still gonna hate.

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I do give interest to depositors, 6.25% APR.

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Hello! I am interested in this! Is there a post or comment where I can find out more how this is structured? (do you only pay once per year?)

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I pay once per month, 6.25% / 12. You can look up one of my monthly bank update posts.

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Ok I found January's post. Thank you, I will get in touch again in the event of a deposit!

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I love the fact that disagreement is hating. I pray for this world. The end is nigh. I bet you didnt even read all of the hate on the original article before you upvoted. Be abuse people understand they are spiritual they are automatically thumpers.

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Not sure why you think banking is so wrong. Bankers enable billions of people to get loans to buy cars and go to work, they lend so people can buy houses to raise their families, go to school, get medical help, etc. They help people save for retirement and the future. But then again according to you it's evil to allow most people an opportunity to purchase something now as oppose to later isn't it? How about hating on the universities for charging such high fees, or the doctors for taking advantage of the sick with high prices, homebuilders for speculating, land owners, etc. It's a system, called capitalism. If you don't like it, ask a Venezuelan about the alternative...

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Much of what you espouse is the curtain of a lie. Allowing people to have just enough in their own lives in order to rule over masses. The medicine suppresses naturopathy and anyone that provides a benefit outside of the established monopoly is demonised into exile. The knowledge is changed because the victor writes the history books.

Ask the younglings how a college education is providing a living while they are trapped in a debt cycle that they can't file bankruptcy on. How does that help?

I dont think banking is wrong. I think that usury like many things is a double edged sword. Why do governments abdicate their responsibility to regulate the creation of money allowing private institutions to create privatized debt obligations. People create money as the blockchain proves. While property is to be respected predators must be restricted by collective power. One lifeform can not have a higher value than another. Resources should be more equitably shared to greatly reduce the need for welfare while those that want more can work harder or be better.

Banking is great for protection of assets as long as equity is apportioned properly. Do you even know what fractional reserves are or what a reserve is? I challenge you to YouTube "The Hidden Secrets of Money" so you can formulate a logical argument about banking.

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I've watched that video. I think that if bankers gave away all the money they have, the only difference in the world would be that bankers would be reduced to normal workers. Economy would inflate to accommodate the new money in circulation and everyone would remain just as poor, just more equal, and working exactly the same hours, maybe for "fairer" purposes.

I believe the would always be privileged ones, either because of money, power or any other resource, either external or internal. Sadly I think this means equality is impossible, as is absolute fairness. I may not think hunting down bankers is the solution, but other things might partially work.

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Wow, I was surprised to read this from you. You run a business, people can go elsewhere if they don’t like the terms. I’ve always ignored berniesanders carrying on about fulltimegeek, but this has me wondering. I hope they stop harassing you, you’ve never seemed unreasonable or unethical in what you do.

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Yes it's very surprising when someone as wealthy as fulltimegeek doesn't seem even seem to have the most basic understanding of how business and economics works.

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It has nothing to do with basic economics. Now that I understand more about what you do I feel more neutral. Fulltime is just defending principles. At least one of us is able to learn from history. Your words show a lot. I am interested in a comparison of value of deposits in your account versus a return from someone's own voting power.

Edit: I didnt know discussion was harassment.

Signing the contract is your choice, not theirs or mine.
Be it heaven or hell, if you sign, then that's by your own design.

A fool signs a thing that they do not understand.

And no matter if it's a loan or into a religion, and no matter how few truly understand, there is most certainly the acceptance and binding of that contract. If you are too illiterate to read the Good Book or the contract-in-full, then you ought to be too illiterate to sign your name as well.

But if it's signed, then it must be fulfilled in full. And the benevolence and fairness is the fact of mutual agreement.

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Very well and voluntarily written. Thank you for your addition of discernment on the current Heigalian Dialectic.

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I hesitate to join this conversation. But I am confused. When I first saw that you had a loan business, a very long time back in blockchain time, it intrigued and surprised me. I had a bit of a look at what you were doing and I never once read a comment from someone who felt like they had been shafted, I saw a lot of thank yous. It occurred to me that they must be pretty damn desperate to hand over vulnerable information, but I've never read of an incident where that information has been breached.
It would never have occurred to me to do something similar, but I don't have the head for banking. Similarly those who are here primarily to mine coin, I don't judge it good luck, it just isn't the way I am wired. I wish I was, but I struggle to get my head around financ. But the block chain is a mini human social / economic diverse platform.
A cryptoverse. It is used for so many reasons, endeavours, pursuits, promotions, distractions, connections, self propulsion, exposure, life balance, charity, business, exploitation.

Living in a world where you have any interaction with others there is economy. It may be structured and contractual or an unspoken exchange and obligation that is assumed or bartered. But human interaction is always competitive. Anyone who has accepted a payout on a post here is engaged in economic exchange. Even if you donate every last piece to a charity, you are still contributing to market exchange by utilising the platform and generating the currency for the person / organisation that you believe worthy of the gift or no interest loan.
But, even if you give it for nothing, their is the emotional / social / belief system secondary gain that you yourself receive even just for the doing of good. You feel satisfaction, and the other party often feels obligation, whether economic or otherwise and whether you ask them to or not.
This is the human experience and it lives within every framework that has ever existed. It is the creatures that we are.
Some call us social or spiritual creatures, others see the other side of the double edge of humanity, the dog eat dog aspect. We all are all of these things. He who has never entered into a human exchange perhaps should caste the first stone.
But that would be impossible wouldn't it? As the very engagement casting a stone, uttering a statement, that renders you a player in the game of life and therefore no different to any other. Being human in a human world is unavoidable.
PS. I went off on a tangent here, but I don't think the tangential nature of my pontificating is any less perplexing than the argument thus far. Idealistic notions can never be lived out. If you are here you are a part of a system of monetary exchange. Tread as carefully and thoughtfully as you can maybe, but tread and you will make an impression. Every last on of us has impact in all areas of life. Walk your fine line and hope for your own degree of contentment in your groove.
This block chain is full of people in need trying to improve their circumstances. It would be a wonder to lend everyone the funds they need, but that is idealistic fairy land.

its your money you have the right of everything

If something beautiful that exists even as on date then in my opinion it is neoxian bank's loan. I have worked with many platforms and even asked for a loan outside steemit and offer them my steemit account, they simply said...hello...we do not recognize steemit account as collateral simply because of the fact that they can be recoverable just by saying it has been hacked.

Neoxian is offering loan by taking steemit account as collateral, so the risk is not the borrower side rather neoxian bank who is offering loan based on your steemit account.

If anybody will have a debate on interest rate then I can bet no other online forum or platform who is giving 10% interest on principal over a span of 3 to 4 months from the date of loan. The average is always more than 15%.

The biggest plus side of neoxian bank is that he is quite flexible for his borrowers and at times people take adavnatge of his flexiability and generosity. So Neoxian Bank also stand to lose on some occasion.

I have seen many people who felt motivated to stay in this platform when I said them that one can also take a loan here in this commuynity based on steemit account.

It is sad that some people are trying to censor and flaggiging in a decentralized community like this. If at all they think so why not run a parallel service and offer better rate or even free of interest as in that way they can prove their credibility. Simply flagging is like dictating with thier steem power.

Awesome reply neo sir more n more power to you 🤗🤗

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LOL

What do people expect, free money? :-P

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Everyone wants free money...

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Of course they do. Welfare magnets are proof of that. While people argue about building unnecessary barriers that serve more than one purpose. Perception is flawed.

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Principle.

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Been using the bank since a year and I can say in all honesty that you don't know shit about @neoxian. This is utter nonsense and 98%+ must be big enough to know how to read clearly and very understandable rules provided by the bank. You either accept them or don't and that's it; There's no middle ground.

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Never said anything about this account other than their lack of conversation and understanding in principle. There are many other places where the rates are astronomical.

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"Dear fundamentalist dipshits that think charging interest for loans is immoral, fuck you."

Man, that's a hard offer to refuse!

Anywho, not a Xtian myself, but agree that interest is immoral, oddly enough. Just not being a douchebag about it, or at least trying not to be.

There are alternatives to interest. Muslim banking does provide profitability potential without interest, via things like origination fees and the like.

Not saying you should change how you do business. You do you. Just trying to broaden the discussion and aiming at reason, rather than rank opposition. There are many more potential responses to your opposition than anger, such as scoffing (which you also undertake), but the best response I reckon is the reasonable exegesis you provide to point out that some return is necessary in order to provide a service.

There are actually some very good reasons interest is untenable in society, and an example is that the US is over $20T in theoretical debt. There's a lot more to that than merely interest, but there always is more to anything, and interest is a cunning ploy that potentiates much douchebaggery. Not, again, saying 'you're a douchebag', but that I disagree that interest is essential, or a good way, to profit from providing a service, by pointing out that actual douchebags have traditionally used interest to do quite objectionable things.

Thanks!

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Why is it immoral? You say it's immoral but you haven't demonstrated it.

  • Renting a car: Moral
  • Renting a house: Moral
  • Renting 1000 usd: Immoral

Why? All of these things take effort. All of them them require capital. All of them involve risk. The fact you have have deemed the renting of money to be immoral seems completely arbitrary to me.

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I think it is because as he said. There are many hidden dangers and people need to understand the total cost. Perhaps that brings us to a way to improve your service by showing people the cost of the transaction in real amortization terms. No one said it should be for free. I see 0% more as a charity as everyone should do to help someone less fortunate. I think he is more articulate than I in describing the hidden dangers that I have been studying for multiple years and barely scratched the proverbial surface. All people see is a payment and can not think in terms of opportunity cost. They were never taught or didnt grasp the importance during Econ101.

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Please continue with this manner of discourse, rather than flagging. I am intrigued by this discussion, and the flagging and ad hominae obstruct it.

Thanks!

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I do not say loans are immoral. Please note that I said there are other mechanisms that potentiate profit besides interest.

Loan origination fees, for example. Loans aren't immoral. Please don't confuse loans with interest. They aren't the same thing, despite that it is common practice in the West. There are actually banks that don't charge interest, in the Muslim ME.

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Do you consider Loan origination fees moral?

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A fee for business just like turning a crop into a product. I have read nothing in regards to morality of collecting an honest wage for work. Interest is subversive because people dont understand or think in terms of total cost.

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I don't understand what's hard to understand? If you get 1000 and you have to pay 1300 back over the course of 2 years, the absolute cost of the transaction is 300, and that's the lender's fee. Where's the hidden danger, problem, cost or difficulty?

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"If you get 1000 and you have to pay 1300 back over the course of 2 years, the absolute cost of the transaction is 300, and that's the lender's fee."

That's not the way interest works though. If an actual fee that was paid over two years in installments was merely added to the principal, I'm totally good with that.

Interest however, doesn't work out that way.

Have a look at amortization tables, and you'll be counfounded at how complex it is to figure out what the actual fee is. Almost no one can figure it out. Basically payments on a thirty year mortgage are almost all 'fee' and very little principal. Interest is the perfect tool for scamming folks, because simple interest is what people assume, but compound interest is different, and mathematically opaque. Further, there are additional mechanisms inherent to interest that are facile to further complicate the matter, and extract yet more from victim's wallets. One more example from mortgages: the interest payments are 'frontloaded' such that initial payments on the mortgage are almost zero principal, and all interest. Only the final payments on the mortgage actually pay much of principal back, and little interest.

Fees are fine because they're forthright. Interest is inherently designed to scam, IMHO.

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Are Neoxian's interests really that complicated?

The Bank of Neoxian shall loan the sum of 180 steem to tegoshei. She promises to repay 202 steem. She shall pay 20.2 steem per month until 202 steem is reached. The first payment shall be Feb. 2nd, 2019.

Ehmmm, looks pretty simple to me. 22 Steem fee + original amount, all paid over the course of 10 months.

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Not when they are stand alone. I have never paid a loan origination fee that wasn't also accompanied by interest, though. Were the fee the cost of the loan, I would absolutely not find it immoral.

I don't think you're doing something wrong in profiting from your stake by loaning it out.

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Alright, so when I loan 100 steem, and ask for 120 steem back, I'll called that extra 20 steem the loan origination fee (that's paid on the tail end), and presto, by the magic of sophistry and word play, I'm moral. Thanks, good to know.

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