More Thoughts on Women, Oppression and Porn
A couple weeks ago I posted on Steemit an essay titled Thoughts on Women, Oppression and Porn. In that essay I shared some well-established but little-understood conclusions of evolutionary psychology, namely that women (in general and not in every instance) have been endowed by evolution with tremendous but mostly unconscious social power by virtue of their sex appeal. I further explained how men (in general and not in every instance), aided oddly enough in recent times by traditional feminists, have worked to deprive women of the social influence that results from their sex appeal under the pretext of protecting women's "honor" or "humanity". I noted how both men and traditional feminists insist that it is dishonorable for women to exploit their inherent sexuality to gain advantage in life, and how both have sought to suppress their ability to do so.
Last night fellow Steemster @veralynn posted a thoughtful critique of my original essay in which she made several counterpoints. The purpose of this post is to address her counterpoints as best as I can.
(Photo credit: Me. Subject: @steemed-open)
The substance of @veralynn's criticism of my thoughts begins with this comment by her:
Not all women (people) want to be empowered sexually, so the ideal that it is “woman’s birthright” to hold sexual power is a sexist stereotype. Implying that (through a born-male, heteronormative perception) women are purely sexual influencing beings is a primitive ideal that helps uphold a patriarchal society. It is borderline Freudian.
In making this comment, @veralynn uses a common rhetorical technique that's actually an informal logical fallacy. Specifically, she slays a straw man, for I never contended that "all" people want to be empowered sexually, nor did I ever say that women are "purely sexual influencing beings", or anything remotely approaching it. Rather, I was quick to anticipate this particular straw man rebuttal to my argument when I wrote the following as the opening paragraph of my original essay:
Disclaimer: In this post I'm going to talk about men and women in general terms and "on the average". I understand completely that not every man is stereotypically male, that not every woman is stereotypically female, and that gender identity can be fluid and even binary. Nonetheless, science still makes meaningful and important distinctions between men and women "on the average", and that's what I discuss here.
So, @veralynn is actually correct that not everyone wants to be sexually empowered and that women are not purely sexual influencing beings, it's just irrelevant to my original contention. And to the extent that she intends to suggests that because we can't make distinctions between men and women in every instance we shouldn't make them in any instance, well...humanity would be in dire straights if we applied similar logic to every dataset.
Next, since my original conclusions flow pretty naturally from the findings of evolutionary psychology, @veraylynn seeks to undermine the significance of those findings. She contends, for example, that:
Evolutionarily speaking, humans are capable of developing different behaviours genetically and adaptively. People are slowly realizing that we aren’t just monkeys, purely motivated by mating and hetero reproduction. This is evolution: the part of the mind that built civilizations, art, invented technology, and questioned society.
However, in making this argument, she does little more than successfully slay another straw man. Evolutionary psychology does not contend that humans are incapable of "developing different behaviors genetically and adaptively." Nor does it contend that people are just "monkeys" who are "purely motivated by mating and...reproduction". And, in fact, evolutionary psychology explains precisely how the rise of "civilizations, art, [and] invented technology" was mostly a consequence of human pursuit of hard-wired biological urges and drives rather than springing from some other more enlightened "part of the mind".
Evolutionary psychology (and all forms of psychology, actually) simply insists that humans are motivated as much or more by unconscious factors--biological urges, societal conditioning, cultural values, mental scripts and habits, paradigms, etc.--as by conscious willpower or authentic self-expression. In fact, science has shown pretty conclusively that what humans perceive subjectively to be free will is often just an ex post facto rationalization of a preexisting but unconscious urge or motive.
In short, evolutionary psychology does not contend that humans are incapable of overcoming our unconscious biological urges, at least for short periods of time and in isolated instances, just that they very rarely do so, at least not en masse. Let's take hunger as an example. Hunger is a deeply-rooted biological urge that has a huge impact on human motivations and actions. Humans will go to extraordinary lengths to satisfy hunger--they will work, they will steal, they will fight, they will migrate, etc. Can humans, via an exercise of will, and in pursuit of some political or social agenda, choose instead to starve to death rather than to pursue food? Of course they could. But does this happen? Very, very rarely. So rarely that studying these outliers is of little use in predicting the conduct of humans as a whole.
Does @veralynn deny that humans as a whole will go to great lengths to satisfy hunger, or that much of society is organized around this basis human urge? Or does she instead contend that the deep, biological drive for sex is somehow different from the drive for hunger--that humans will organize their society around food but not sex? If the latter, then she fails to explain how or why or to offer up any evidence in support of her contention. And, if not, then her implied argument that biological urges are insufficient to explain human motivation and society collapses.
Despite arguing that humans are motivated by a more noble "part of the mind" than unconscious, biological urges, @veralynn inadvertently concedes the contrary by labeling my original arguments (actually, her own straw man version of my original arguments) "borderline Freudian". By that she meant this: Whilst "my" sexist viewpoints were ostensibly anchored in the findings of science, they were (she implies) really just an after-the-fact rationalization of my own secret and deep-seeded dominant male libido. Perhaps @veralyann thinks it's only males that are "monkeys"?
Toward the end of her post, she again attempts to undermine the findings of evolutionary psychology when she says:
Note that while I do not agree with the evolutionary psychology ideologies stated in the article in question, I do agree that there is a problem with gender discrimination that must be confronted.
Ideologies? Really!? I cited books by noted and respected evolutionary scientists, not political ideologues. Evolutionary psychology is only an "ideology" like evolution itself is an "ideology". The findings of evolutionary psychology are, in fact, very well-supported by scientific research across multiple species (not just humans) and disciplines, much more so than any other branch of psychology. Nobody (by which I mean almost nobody) who lacks conscious or unconscious religious motivations denies the findings of evolution today. And similarly, nobody who lacks a conscious or unconscious political/social agenda denies the findings of evolutionary psychology today. Despite this, @veralynn offers up absolutely no rational basis for her "disagreement" with its conclusions. Clearly, her beef lies primarily in the fact that evolutionary psychology undermines her traditional feminist political and social agenda and not with the underlying scientific process itself.
At this point I'd like to move on to a point upon which @veralynn and I come a little closer to agreeing--on differentiating between sexual empowerment and sexual objectification. She offers up this helpful distinction:
If the person being subjected has the power, than it is empowerment.
However, if that person has little or no power, they are being objectified.
Ask yourself: Is the person aware and consenting to sexualizing the situation?
If the answer is No, it is most likely objectification.
If the answer is Yes, then it is definitely empowering!
While I agree that nobody has the right to be physically molested, sexually or otherwise, without their consent, I have two issues with her proposed test. The first is that it seems to suggest that "power" is something given by others or granted by society. It's not! Power is something that is assumed. Power results from one "owning" oneself completely. Power is inherent to the individual and is either exercised or abandoned by choice. Women will not, in fact cannot, gain power and influence by simply shaming men into ceding it or by lobbying governments into bestowing it. They will have it only when they grasp it--when they claim their birthright for themselves, and when they seek to lovingly exploit every natural advantage that they have without shame or compromise, when they market all of their natural gifts the same way that an engineer does or a pro athlete does.
In short, a woman being ogled by men almost invariably has the power. The only issue is whether she recognizes it or not, and whether she exploits it adeptly or not. If she fails to recognize or exploit it, then the larger question is...why? Certainly some women may simply be naturally disinclined to exercise the power, but that's (evolutionarily speaking) a definite minority. Instead, I contend that women concede their sexual power largely because they have been conditioned by men and by feminists to overlook it, or worse to be ashamed of it and lay it down. Women have been conned for centuries into thinking that when men are attracted to them, it's actually the men who have the power and are being "dominant". What a joke!! When an employer seeks to engage the services of a highly-desirable and in-demand engineer, who has the "power"? The employer? Hardly.
My second issue with her test is the idea that nobody should be "objectified" without consent. In my view that's simply pie-in-the-sky fantasy land type of thinking. Evolution programmed us to be sexually aroused by certain things (mainly other humans), and that's true regardless of whether the thing knows we are aroused by it or not. You being aroused by me doesn't "objectify" or "dehumanize" me in any possible way, even if I'm unaware of it or I'm powerless to quell your lust--well, unless I've been conned into thinking that I should feel "objectified" or "dehumanized" as a result. But, what if instead I had been taught that I was empowered by the attention and I knew how to exploit it?
In short, I'm grateful for @veralynn engaging in dialogue on this important subject. I hope my comments above are taken constructively and are useful to the reader in interpreting and weighing our two prior posts.
I really could hardly disagree more on this point. As an individual outside of the context provided by society, any person has almost no power beyond their direct physical capacity to manipulate the world around them.
It is society and not ourselves that grants any degree of meaningful power -that is social currency. It seems absurd on its face to suggest that power is an innate feature of a person rather than something bestowed by society; it is a direct contradiction of the core of feminist and Marxist theory.
Do politicians end up in positions of power because they are intrinsically powerful? Or is it because they understand how to game the incentive structure enforced by society in order to maximize personal gain?
It is obviously the latter, if the efforts of the ruling class to maintain power ceased, hierarchical domination of society by that class would end soon thereafter since they have no intrinsic power, but rather leverage their social power to maintain control.
In much the same sense that politicians dominate society with the incentive structures in place, so too has the patriarchy dominated both men and women by enforcing the ideals of masculinity and femininity which have done great harm to us all. To suggest that gender relations can be reduced to our evolutionary context is to deny the social context which we are all living through this very instant.
I believe that "power" in this case, was meant to refer specifically and perhaps only to the female sex appeal discussed early in the article. To recap, the ogled woman should be perceived to have power over the ogler. Ogled women who admit that they are in a powerful position in relation to oglers can be said to own that specific power. I don't think the author's intention was to reduce the absolute meaning of the word "power," but only to refer to a certain type that is often misunderstood. The social currency wielded by politicians and based on built reputation simply isn't the sort of power being referred to here.
If, solely in the situation 'female sex appeal', a person, the ogler, is demonstrating their power, how are we expecting the ogled to demonstrate their authority in the situation? Or, how should they respond to emphasize their power in the situation if their desired outcome is to have the ogler stop because the ogled is uncomfortable?
Nobody is entitled to a lack of discomfort.
You demonstrate your power the same way that a desirable engineer who is being pursued by an employer demonstrates his/her power. You name your "price" and accept the offer, or you decline the offer and walk away. Either way, you are in control.
By "naming your price", I don't necessarily mean truly selling sex, so please don't go there. I simplify mean getting something valuable in return for the attention you are receiving. There are a million ways to do that. The make-up tutorial here on Steemit is a recent example of one creative and effective way. Do you blame her for exploiting her got given assets to get upvotes? If so, do you blame Michael Jordan for exploiting his? If not, what's the qualitative difference between the two? In my view, there is none.
This is a great question for @sean-king, who will answer it better than I can. One ad I happened to see on youtube showed a female photographer who began taking pictures of the cat-callers. I don't think that's a great example of owning power, though. I'd describe that more as turning the tables. I will say that I relate to being uncomfortable with that kind of attention and have had some pretty far fetched experiences, even as a child, where I felt I was hated when it turned out I just stood out in a provocative way that wasn't my fault. Coming to view that as power instead of feeling victimized is one of the best things a person can do for their self-esteem, I believe. Just refuse to think of it as them making you uncomfortable. You are captivating. You are enchanting.
"Power can be taken, but not given. The process of the taking is empowerment in itself." --Gloria Steinem
In making this statement, Gloria was repeating a common aphorism, and it's an aphorism for a reason--because it's true.
You seem to confuse power with leadership or influence. Power confers leadership and influence. Leadership and influence do not confer power. One cannot be a leader without first being powerful--without first having the physical and mental constitution capable of sustaining the burdens of leadership.
Power is ultimately about self-mastery. Anyone who has mastered the self is powerful. So much so that the empowered hermit master is a mythical archetype--Jesus, Buddha, Yoda, Obi Wan Kenobi, etc.
So, society doesn't grant power. Society only grants leadership. And except for corrupt systems, it grants leadership only to the powerful--those who have mastered their self.
The "societal context" of which you speak is itself a result of the "evolutionary context" of which I speak. Take some away from studying feminism and Marx and read up on evolutionary biology. You'll be astounded by its findings, and by how well-supported they are.
Whether and how they choose to use or exploit this power is a differen story
@sean-king says,
Leadership IS power. Power is not a property of a person, it is a feature that arises as a result of social context.
I understand evolutionary biology and I don't believe it in any way contradicts feminism or Marxism, nor do I see why anybody else would. Like @veralynn said:
I could hardly have stated it better myself. One of the things that makes human beings so extraordinary is that we have transcended the state of nature and no longer must depend on our sexuality or physical prowess as a hunter/gatherer to survive, and our social interactions ought to, and should reflect that. We aren't cave-people anymore, and it is time to act like it.
Because you believe that power comes from others, you will never have said power, and you will never be a leader, my friend. Leadership is to power. Leadership is the result of exercising power.
That is fine with me, I'm an anarchist. I seek neither to rule nor to be ruled. It is hierarchy itself which has poisoned society.
Read up on the latest scientific studies regarding free will, or rather the absence thereof. We are definitely slaves to the unconscious. The only debate among scientists these days on this subject centers around whether we are completely under the control of the unconscious, or just mostly so.
This is incredibly important. We are not slaves to the subconscious.
Yes, we are, you are a monkey, 99% of your brain is a monkey's brain,
only a fraction of it holds what you would call, your intellectual self.
You just dont like to see that. You prefer to see yourself as something way above a monkey,
when in reality you arent. The only reason you make the FP is because feminazi number one in the house @stellabelle supports your "work". Deal with it
Dear lord, thank you for this reply.
Hey @sean-king, thanks for the response.
I would like to address that it seems as though you feel my article was a personal attack on your beliefs. Note that I was merely giving a female influencing opinion on the differences between empowerment and objectification.
Discussion is important, but I do not appreciate being an assumed misandrist. Consider rephrasing questions like this, as it sounds like you have a different agenda, opposed to a debate.
Here is another point you make even further rationalizes my original argument:
You don't feel objectified by said situation because it doesn't objectify you. That was my whole point of the article-- even the title asks the key question, "Is This Empowerment, Or Objectification?"
Again, thank you for the response. Please take my article in question as constructive criticism for how we interact/treat/talk about women in the future, as that was the idea when creating it.
great discourse
Thanks again. I did not take your response as a personal attack in any way, and I did not intend mine to be one. To the extent it came across that way, my apologies. I sometimes debate like a trial lawyer--with passion and conviction and hopefully logic. I did not mean to insult you personally.
No need for apologies. It was a wonderful discussion that we should see more of!
One last thing I would like to edit and reiterate:
I still don't believe that psychology undermines feminism politically, or socially.
Thank you, again, for the discussion. I look forward to reading your future articles. :)
As I said already correlation is not equal to causality. I know I'm a little late in the discussion so please forgive my tardy response.
I don't understand you final point about objectification. Are you suggesting that your arousal is only objectification if I feel objectified by it? That objectification is not objective but rather is determined solely by the mental state and self-image of the object? I would suggest the opposite. if you are going to accuse someone of objectifying you, then it's their mental state, their intent, that is determinative, not your reaction to it.
Everyone individually decides what feels objectifying. Objectification occurs when a person feels they have been treated more as an object than as a person, and when that is is different for different people.
There is not, by definition, an objective, fixed length list of things that are objectifying. It is up to us, both at the individual and at the social level to try to be more aware of the phenomenon of objectification and actively avoid it.
Reality is not what you feel it is,
you cant extrapolate moral relativism and subjectivity to any issue, it doesnt work that way.
If you learned to empathize with others, like women, then you would be able to understand that your demand for the issue to be black and white is beyond unrealistic.
Reality is not what you feel it is, you cant extrapolate moral relativism
and subjectivity to any issue, it doesnt work that way.
Objectification is defined as the seeing and/or treating a person, usually a woman, as an object.
I think it can be argued that if a person feels victimized or objectified, they could very well be. That obviously isn't the only factor when we ask ourselves, "is this objectifying?" Objectification can be classified by many other telling categories.
My final point was to illustrate how some of your questions are rhetorical. Since your first sentence said you aren't objectified by the hypothetical-- well, then it's probably not objectifying. However, that's not a realistic standpoint of how these situations usually play out.
You make the grave error of thinking that if you or someone feel something
then that something is real.
Your solipsism is getting the best of you and controls you like a demon.
Reposting this because it got hidden by censorship.
You make the big and typical mistake of thinking that if you or someone feel something
then that something is real. Your solipsism is getting the best of you and controls you like a demon. Reposting this because it got hidden by censorship.
You make the grave error of thinking that if you or someone feel something
then that something is real.
Your solipsism is getting the best of you and controls you like a demon.
can you smell the solipsism in vera's replies?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
reposting this cause it was hidden by censorship.
can you smell the solipsism in vera's replies?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
No.
In that pose you can probabliy smell something else.
more on thoughts on objectification
I think we see it happening because in web, mostly there are men.
It is obvious there are women also, but now we can see something strange, because in internet , insulting a woman is acceptable by many people.
It is very stupid, but i think that internet is a place where hate is #1 thanks to "anonymous" users.
They think being "anonymous" (actually they are not if someone really wants to track them) gives them right to insult the others.
My normally sweet girlfriend complained about SteemIt being open on my screen, calling it "the women spreading their legs site again". I get that you're going for max clickbait, but come the hell on. How low can you go.
Please make the broad with her legs spread go away from the top of my SteemIt feed.
Ever heard of "manspreading". Tell your wife it's not just for men anymore.
And that "broad" is my wife. Do you regularly call women 'broads', or just sexually empowered ones? And do you even know what the term means?
I chose the image purposefully and not just as click bait. If you read my post you would get the symbolism.
It's still clickbait and a cheap trick that you didn't really need in this post. You could've at least used a more SFW picture as the leading picture and included the current picture further down, that way we wouldn't all have to see your wife spreading her legs everytime we open steemit.com..
I'm truly surprised that you find that image to be even remotely NSFW. That you do says much more about you than it does me. However, to the extent that you and your wife find the image to be sexual and you want to repress/suppress it as a result (for instance, by the downvote you gave this post and also the your suggestion to use something more "SFW"), you simply reinforce the point of my post--men and "feminist" women go out of their way to suppress powerful expressions of female sexuality and to prevent them from exploiting sex appeal for their benefit.
I'm male and have to say that I am against utilising women. Women and men are both human being and equal. We life in 2016 and not 142 A.D
Personally, I'm just glad that this is the type of debates that we can read on steemit! That shows the quality :)
Thanks @sean-king!
Word.
Ha ha :)
First of all you should be sure that your posts are valuable, man I have read most of your posts, you are a good writer and you are giving a lot of new info that really can help people, critique is in human nature and any successful person is attacked by others, you should be happy because it's a sign of success and you are free to talk and write about any thing you find it helpful for people, any way don't loose faith and keep giving your followers good information , thank you
Hi! This post has a Flesch-Kincaid grade level of 12.5 and reading ease of 46%. This puts the writing level on par with academic journals.
I think it's more of a Fresh-Koolaid level.
Thank you for setting such a high standard of discourse here @sean-king! I love the way you accurately called out straw man arguments and educated while still earnestly engaging in discussion. Masterfully done.
#ILOVEMEN And I love being ogled most of the time. Especially when I dress up and hang out in swanky lounges here in NYC. But when sexuality is translated into sexual dominance/violence that is not invited and being offered by emotionally unstable humans. These are two separate issues.
translation: "I like being ogled when I think the guy is hot or I can gain something from him being attracted to me,
if not, the same ogling is offensive, creepy, harrassing and almost gaze rape"