Haejin has gone for downvoting rampage

in #abuse5 years ago (edited)

The moment I decided to downvote him, for his abusive behavior of spamming 10 posts per day and self-voting, I knew that it could bite me back. But I asked myself: "What's the absolute worse case scenario that could happen?"

He would flag all my posts, those with pending rewards and those yet to come, to zero, resulting with not being able to receive any Steem from author rewards ever again.

So I asked myself: "Could I live with that?"

Yes, since Steem is not my source of income.

It would be unfortunate, but I would still be able to earn via tribes, since token rewards seem to have remain the same. Curation would then become my main source of Steem.

Perhaps I should have not done it, perhaps having too much skin in the game wasn't a good idea. Perhaps I should've let the big boys take care of the problem. That's the easy thing to do: staying hidden. But I don't believe in yelling at other people to do this-and-that if one is not also ready to get his/her own hands dirty. Maybe I will not need to burn my fingers again though, since big stakeholders like @theycallmedan and @blocktrades seem to be taking action against Haejin's attempt to squeeze every bit out of the rewardpool. Even bidbots are now flagging him – which is great news – and I think these absolute worst type of abusers with revenge behavior are best left to projects like @curangel, @ocdb and others that have a big concentration of voting power via delegation – to which losing author rewards matters little to none – so that individuals won't get burned on the process.

He (and rancho) downvoted my pending posts, all to zero except the latest photography Drive episode that he did not have enough voting power to put completely on the ground. However this was because I used @ocdb, so now having received the downvote, it results with not getting that Steem back that was used for the vote. It is not a catastrophe though, since at least the curators will be getting something from that post, and despite "losing money", the Steem is going back to the reward pool which is in a much healthier state distribution wise at the moment.

I'm not sure what's Haejin's intentions long-term, but the only thing under my control in any case is to up my content to receive more support from others. Ever heard of synchronicity? Just during this photo shoot when I was branching my content to self-portraits – that I have never taken before with my camera – I receive the downvotes. Rather symbolic. It also drastically changed the original intention of what was supposed to be the "My first self-portraits" post.

But here's my most important message and plead for bigger stakeholders:

Please keep an eye on Haejin and counter his revenge downvotes on users who do not deserve them.


Looking at Steemd.com, I can see that on top of me, he has cast downvotes on @cwcost (GO GIVE HIM A VOTE to counter haejin's damage!), @likwid, @steemitqa, @firealiean, @adetorrent and @oracle-d.

I'm not looking for drama, nor am I planning to engage in any kind of toxic "war-like" Steem-drama that is associated with this revenge type of behavior. But I hope as many as possible will get this information so they can make their own judgment on the issue.

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Bro, don't stop. Keep flagging him. You'er a soldier :) I saw that you stepped up, and that's one of the reasons why I also stepped up. The more of us flag him, the more he drains his voting power retaliating. With me he's having to use both his Ranchorelaxo and Haejin accounts at 100%. This means he's missing out on upvoting himeself. He can't sustain it, the more he does it, everyday will cost him 20% and within 5 days he'll be down to near 0% voting power and will have to halt.

I hope he keeps flagging me actually. The more he flags me, the less he's upvoting is automated screenshots.

We will continue to flag him to zero everyday. I am in the process of buying more steem to up my voting power for the sole purpose of flagging him even lower. I wont stop until he's dealt with or he changes his ways. This is #newSteem and things have changed. Enough of the garbage reward pool rape.

Bro, don't stop. Keep flagging him. You'er a soldier :) I saw that you stepped up, and that's one of the reasons why I also stepped up.

Yo, that's so awesome that it was because of me!

Unfortunately, downvoting doesn't drain upvoting, because they are in a separate pools now since the Hard Fork. However, the good thing is that his rewards can be taken to zero and even he cannot downvote everyone to the ground with his limited downvoting power. And with the community having our backs in case of retaliation – he cannot fight all :)

downvoting doesn't drain upvoting, because they are in a separate pools now since the Hard Fork.

The downvote pool is of limited size though (2.5 full power downvotes per day). If someone wants to downvote more than that they have to use their regular upvote power.

Oh, so you can downvote after the (downvote) pool is empty, but from thereon it's taken from upvoting power, got it.

Yes that is how it is supposed to work and as far as I know does work.

When you downvoting a lot, your Downvote Power can go down even to 0. I think that we can't use regular Upvote Power for downvoting.

Once your downvote power goes to zero, it is supposed to start using your regular vote power for downvoting. If you find that it doesn't, that's a bug, please carefully document the conditions and report it.

We need to gang up on all the abuse one at a time. I've used my daily downvote quota on bidbots, and my post with the Bidbottophant was killed by Booster last week (humour isn't taken well by people loosing their dodgy business). So I am a little split between using my daily 2,67 downvote on Hajin or bidbot abuse... Haijin has been on a list inside my head for a very long time as the least honourable steemian of them all.

This is cool.
It's like the dolphins have turned on the whales - the abusive ones, anyway.
I'm starting to feel more hopeful about the state of things here. We have a long way to go, but there have been a couple positive changes in the past few days.

He currently has the highest reputation on the entire blockchain, which is quite a problem if you think that reputation counts for something. I should point out though, that steemocean shows he is not even in the top 10 accounts for self upvoting: https://steemocean.com/

I can also see that he made zero downvotes during the last indexing period: https://steemocean.com/voter/haejin

which is quite a problem if you think that reputation counts for something

The obvious solution is to stop thinking that it counts for something or even remove it from the platform.

It was a very stupidly implemented feature in the first place, though it did have its intended benefit in being able to reduce the reputation of pure spammers below zero for hiding purposes. Other than that it should be ignored or removed.

That function is really the only reason it's here I think. I agree that it's pretty dumb and I complained about the soft censoring from day 1. Either this is an anarchy flavoured network or it isn't. In reality it's anarchy lite - but at least we can remove the nonsense. :)

I feel that if we remove that, a lot of people will start posting what's on their mind.

Then, only the people that care about rewards would hold their tongues.

There's nothing wrong with free speech. ;)

" everyone has the right.... to free speech...that is, unless you're dumb enough.... to actually try it..."

Paraphrased from The Clash.....

Seems quite apt, from what I see in these parts...

What do you think,would it be possible to do a better rep system with @steem-ua? Some claimed it is a dead project, but I've seen them using flags at least.

Sure better rep systems might be possible. To me that's a separate question from whether the existing one has any useful value. IMO the existing one really is so bad and has almost no value. As such, there shouldn't be any requirement to replace it in order to remove it or largely remove it.

He currently has the highest reputation on the entire blockchain, which is quite a problem if you think that reputation counts for something.

What does it count for? I'm still trying to figure that one out. Look at #2, and the other abusers that occupy spots in the top 20. I'd put it at a solid 50%.

Great site btw! I didn't know that existed. :-)

Thanks, I made steemocean, but it doesn't make money and I don't have time to promote it much. Maybe I'll make a video advert at some point for my videos ;)
Reputation mainly effects downvoting and censoring. Once your reputation goes below zero your posts are soft censored in Steemit.com. If you downvote someone who has a lower reputation than yours, then you can actually lower their reputation. So the highest account has the potential to become a tyrant and censor everyone if they have the resources to!

Can lower rep accounts drop higher rep accounts, or is he cock of the rock until someone overtakes him?

Lower rep can never drop higher rep accounts.

Lower rep accounts cannot lower higher rep accounts, no - so it basically means he is 'emperor' for now.

Wow, really, do we need a Hard Fork to change the reputation system? xD

It's up to website operators to decide what they use reputation for - some don't allow it to censor posts but ultimately that is part of the design of Steem, to mitigate spam.
@dan at one point artificially set berniesanders to -15 but then over time he recovered and some people started upvoting him to help him recover.

So we need to nuke steamcleaners with some whalevotes to make them the tyrant, or the next in line @traf ahem @trafalgar... :-). hmmmmm

I've seen Steemcleaners be tyrannical and cause problems unfairly. The entire premise of a reputation pyramid is in opposition to the principles of anarchy that Steem was allegedly built on.. Well, except it is 'anarcho capitalism' which itself is an oxymoron.

It's dumb that a large aggregate of lower rep accounts can't drop a higher rep account over time. Even a noble account at the top of the pyramid could get compromised or turn rogue. This should really get fixed at some point.

So, he's emperor, unless we can raise up somebody larger than him, to take him down. A weapon.
But how to ensure the weapon doesn't turn back on us once it takes out the current emperor?

I hope not, that sounds like a bad setup.

Hi @celestial,

Thanks for the mention, you mispelled my account @cwcost, just wanted to get as many eyes on my post as possible after the rampage. We had set up to use @howo's flag curation trails, seemed pretty safe until we got flagged!
Here's my post that got flagged, hopefully it can make it back to color?
https://steemit.com/original/@cwcost/into-the-clouds-original

Ahh... Sorry about misspelling your username! Fixed it.

Here's my post that got flagged, hopefully it can make it back to color?

I'll see what I can do.

Thanks for the help! Mahalo!

Whale power is great and all, but they don't have enough power or attention to fight all the abuse, so it's going to take all of us in the fight. The good thing about having separate pools, is that the good guys can rally in support when retaliation happens. He doesn't have enough DV power to retaliate against everyone, and he's just bringing attention on himself. Retaliation by large wallets is strategically the stupidest thing they could possibly do in this environment.

Good on you for not being intimidated!

Whale power is great and all, but they don't have enough power or attention to fight all the abuse, so it's going to take all of us in the fight.

100% agree, that's why I said that only in extreme cases (mainly this haejin case really) a small author might be better off staying out of the way. Luckily I'm noticing with this post that the community is backing those who get revenge flags :)

He doesn't have enough DV power to retaliate against everyone, and he's just bringing attention on himself. Retaliation by large wallets is strategically the stupidest thing they could possibly do in this environment.

Yup, the community is no longer turning the blind eye, so he's not getting away with it.

Good on you for not being intimidated!

Like said, I don't have my living on the line, so I can live slightly on the edge and try my limits :D

I feel the same way. I am much more interested in the contents of my wallet going up in value than buying top ramen with author rewards.

A lot of us larger stakeholders are keeping an eye out on these things

I threw out a couple of votes at @adetorrent first and was going to do the same for you after my mana recharges tomorrow, but I see others have already got there.

With the new economic incentives in place we can all afford to fight abuse and restore honest voting onto the platform as the dominant form of behavior. If you're someone who generally votes honestly and has content rewarded based on organic (rather than bought) votes, even if it's only since the start of NewSteem, many of us larger stakeholders appreciate your efforts in helping to cultivate a healthier culture and won't stand idly by if you're subject to unfair retaliatory downvotes.

Btw, if you notice this, consider giving a counter vote to @cwcost (I first accidentally misspelled his username):

https://steempeak.com/original/@cwcost/into-the-clouds-original

Hey, great to hear you threw couple for @adetorrent! Yeah, I see that others have got my back and restored my rewards – and a lot more extra! Super grateful for everyone, the love is overwhelming :D

I did have the theory that after Hard Fork, bid bots would eventually be forced to raise their standards, but boy, they're starting to curate! Overall the change in culture has exceeded my expectations – we're living exciting times in Steemland!

I forgot to say thanks by the way.

Back in the day, there was a big flag war that @fulltimegeek and others initiatives against @haejin but last I observed he had reformed his ways.

But your report of counterflags seems to suggest that we are back at square one maybe. The agreement last time is he would use so many votes to curate and support good content which he seemed to have done for a season (that I noticed but he may have done the right thing for some time. Idk).

Sorry you got flagged. Maybe consider joining @steemflagrewards as we try to protect each other from retaliatory flags.

Also be sure to look into @freezepeach. They started the push to counter flag abuse and are a worthy project ran by @rondon. Check em out!

Yeah, I remember that drama between geek and haejin, but I can't see him curating - which makes me think that he's crazy because the flags will not stop coming, yet he keeps on self-voting - he would be making a lot more if he just delegated to @ocdb, for example, if he's too lazy to manually curate. But I guess he's gotten enough already by extracting from the reward pool.

Yeah, I already joined @steemflagreward's Discord.

Wow, such an abuse of power in the top tiers. I think that a lot of people are sick of this type of behavior on steemit and want to see someone stop it, unfortunately not many people are willing to give up their own rewards for it. So thank you for being that person, you truly are a hero (not all hero's wear capes)..

I think you should try to create a downvote bot that people can buy into to slam abusive power, I know I'd send a steem or two to a bot like that cuz my <1 cent vote doesn't hurt anyone! Or maybe a downvote follower that thousands of steemians can join and help combat this terrible behavior. I know I don't use my downvotes and I would love for them to go to something like this. If thousands of minnows, dolphins, orcas and whales all work together maybe we could change things as a whole. I really don't think you should have to go at this alone but I honestly don't know how to help with only 580SP.

I know as a minnow my time would be over on this platform if I dare stand up to hiejin or racho so I just keep my head down and watch them ruin the thing i love (steemit) while gritting my teeth.

Anyhow, I love your style bro and I wish you the best and in case no one else says it, Thank you!*

I think you should try to create a downvote bot that people can buy into to slam abusive power, I know I'd send a steem or two to a bot like that cuz my <1 cent vote doesn't hurt anyone! Or maybe a downvote follower that thousands of steemians can join and help combat this terrible behavior.

There's a curation project, that I'm also curating for: @curangel. But they also enable delegators to give suggestions on who to downvote with the delegated stake!

I know I don't use my downvotes and I would love for them to go to something like this.

Check out @steemflagrewards!

I know as a minnow my time would be over on this platform if I dare stand up to hiejin or racho so I just keep my head down and watch them ruin the thing i love (steemit) while gritting my teeth.

Luckily there are many big accounts taking turns at him :)

Anyhow, I love your style bro and I wish you the best and in case no one else says it, Thank you!*

Thanks, mate, and thanks for all your kind words!
Cheers!

Wow, thanks for the awesome reply and great information! I will definitely look into delegating to @curangel and @steemflagrewards because I like both those ideas.

But what I was talking about was (someone) actually creating a downvote follower tool, kind of like Steem Voter. But instead of using peoples upvotes it would use their free daily downvotes. That way even extremely small accounts can join in and help to combat abuse on the blockchain but not get singled out in retaliation from the bigger accounts. I know that is a big concern/issue with smaller accounts so many choose not to use their downvotes so they just to waste when they could be used by a responsible curation service like @curangel. That way they wouldn't have to only use delegation and upvotes to fight abuse, they could also use the the communities downvotes. (hopefully this all makes sense, lol)

Just a thought, don't know if it is actually even possible or not? What do you think about something like that?

But what I was talking about was (someone) actually creating a downvote follower tool, kind of like Steem Voter.

@steemflagrewards does run a flag trail.

https://flagtrail.herokuapp.com/

@howo also made a tool that does something similar. There are other people who simply follow a flagger. I know a few people follow @whatsup's downvote pattern.

There are options out there, just gotta find what works for you.

Good to know. I appreciate the quick response :0)

Well, check out this, might be what you're looking for.

Oh yea, nice photos too :)

(and.. it's been 16 hours since Haejin's last post. I think he might be getting the message).

Oh yea, nice photos too :)

Haha, thanks!

Great courage to stand up ! With HF 21-22 and the downvote pool,

I believe Hardin has already lost. Thank you for making me aware of the situation and I will try to join the « real Steemians » to stop this abuse !

On the other side I think that he unfortunately has every right to post 10times a day and as long as rewards are not outrageous, should we intervene?

Best luck to you and here is a small upvote from me

On the other side I think that he unfortunately has every right to post 10times a day and as long as rewards are not outrageous, should we intervene?

Of course, that is his right. It's tricky to say how much he should be earning, but that's open for the "collective negotiation", if you will, via downvotes/upvotes according to people's conscience – that's how proof-of-brain is supposed to work.

Best luck to you and here is a small upvote from me

Thanks, it's appreciated :)

@adetorrent was catching me up on this yesterday. Good on you guys, this even reminds me of my people in Hong Kong who are currently fighting for what's right.

Thanks for doing this man

Posted using Partiko Android

Oh the love I'm receiving right now to counter haejin's flags – it's unbelievable!

All the best for your folks in Hong Kong, too!

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