RE: @haejin still raping the reward pool! @ned WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE??
I've been one of the earliest followers of @haejin and while his formatting and style can definitely be improved I did enjoy some of his chart readings.
He has been consistently posting at this speed for a long time, even when he was making mere cents per post. I can see some increased posting from him due to enthusiasm (who wouldn't when suddenly you do start earning a lot) but overall I wouldn't say his posting behaviour has changed all that much.
I kind of think that there was a tipping point where he started to gain some more wealthy followers that started to auto-upvote. Once you breach $10 consistently.. well, you know everybody else is going to pile up in order to get curation earnings. It's the same reason why posting today's price of Steem and SBD every day can earn some people a lot of money.
I personally don't think @haejin is abusing the system, but rather got lucky through organic growth and the way Steem(it) is set up.
I can't say I agree with the hundreds of dollars a day earnings either to be honest, but I don't know if @haejin is to blame for this or his followers (or indeed STEEM/Steemit).
I do think posting 10x a day could easily be combined and compiled into 2-3 posts a day with more substance, though. Because indeed, when the amounts get so high that it becomes 6% of the reward pool... from an ethical and long term Steem outlook that doesn't seem like a good thing.
Anyway, just giving my opinion as a more-or-less-outsider looking in. I would sooner blame the system in this case rather than @haejin specifically. I feel actively downvoting/flagging his posts may not be an ethically sound solution in this case either. But, who am I to talk? This is the Steem wild west...
@Haejin is 100% responsible for this. When you look through his comments on his posts, he consistently has specific users ONLY post on his posts. His posts have no information in them other than just some quick pictures. (His fake accounts all have posts that are similar, just a quick picture of the graph.)
Why would users come to Steemit and make an account, and then give like 50% of their votes specifically to Haejin and Haejin only.
There was also a ton of brand new accounts that were made that were trying to support haejin and that is the only activity they had, ONLY posted on Haejin and upvoted Haejin.
There is a list of probably close to 30 that have been found for sure, and there are a lot more I am sure. It is almost as if Haejin created an ecosystem to himself and is trying to add votes and fake comments to make his post look more legitimate.
90% of his funds come from ONE user who has never voted for anyone except Haejin. Is some secret whale that existed and has gotten 1.2 Million Steem from Bittrex.
I believe that whoever this whale is, created an ecosystem of his own army of accounts to upvote his own stuff and steal from the reward pool.
There is no way someone other than Haejin created tons of accounts to support Haejin and Haejin only. All the comments are very obvious to, they sit their and praise him like hes a god, or compliment him all the time on the amazing posts. AND, he uses these fake accounts to respond to posts on his posts, to make it seem like his following is a lot bigger and more real than it actually is.
You will also see that the upvotes on these fake accounts usually have a higher reward than the other people who comment on his post.
Very mature, kiddo :-) Easier to downvote than to answer. Loving bernie's followers more each day :-)
Please see the below comment where I responded to you.
Ignorant you are.
Oh, wow. I must say this is new information to me, but if this is true then perhaps there is more to this story indeed. Sigh, oh Steem....
Account creation with upvote bots is a huge problem, that I don't know how it is possible to solve without the introduction of digital identities. Even then, there are clickfarms in China. It is for this reason that I can't believe 100% in Steem's future the way things are now.. there are too many ways to abuse the system, and the bigger Steem grows the bigger this problem will get.
Easiest way to solve this issue is an army of moderators with delegated SP to find abusers such as @haejin, flag/downvote until they correct their behaviors. The problem is where to get this delegated SP around millions. @ned or @steemit can delegate. Or, a benevolent whale do that. Or, a group of good whales collaborate to make a fund (e.g. as OP from bernie) to counteract these abusers.
With a research leg such as @paulag and in future using ML/DL/AI, particularly for finding self/proxy vote abusers, proposed fund will counteract them.
It is not on the edge of ethics since these blatant abusers can be easily identifiable. For interest, anyone can look into this tool and find "thoughtless comments" such as "Cute :D, Thanks, Haha........" earning $50 which is potentially $250...that does not look good for steem blockchain.
http://www.steemreports.com/trending-comments/
I think one step would be to work as a community against users who abuse the system. You, me and the whole community can decide for themself (by flagging) if we want to support this kind of behaviour in the future.
I don't know if the answer is self-regulation. Even though it will work for a while, I don't know if it is sustainable in the long term.
Personally, I would like to see a maximum reward per post implemented, regardless of SP. @haejin's posts aren't of great quality and probably don't deserve hundreds of dollars, but may I point out that @ned's post above has already raked in $750 as well?
I am one of those accounts that just have been made to support haejin. I know him from youtube and wanted to actively support him because thats what he deserves imho. There are many like me which are simply grateful for all his work and that's how as an individual you can support him for his amazing work.
You'll never convince them barsic. It's like trying to talk to a flat earther.
I completely agree and you can see where STEEM is heading if the devs will not intervene on these issues.
check the first post about this that berniesanders made. I did some resarch on the data i could find. Dig deeper and make your own mind about this.
This is the only bone I'll throw you and anyone else who has a legit concern about what's happening. This is a snippet from the campaign for the website under my user name:
That's in 3 days. There are no bots I'm sorry to tell you. We have upwards of 50k people viewing our site a week. It's strategy, and organic, nothing else. If you don't believe me, look up the public data on it. 10k youtube followers, 3k twitter followers, 6k steemit followers, and 50k website views a week. No bots. Even crypto-bot isn't a bot, it's just a name. Hope this helps anyone looking for the real story here.
Tell me how this proves anything? There is no proof in this picture that it is your website? Plus, how is it proof that you aren't a shill Haejin account when you are stating you run a website for Haejin?
Believe what you like. I have no obligation to reveal my information to you or anyone else. Just know that you are incorrect. I'm sorry this ever happened. We have worked months promoting and garnering support from around the web, it's not worth risking all that effort to argue about something that isn't based on any facts. And on that note, I would love to see even one single piece of real evidence that there are ANY shill accounts, rather than speculation. Good day to you.
I can't even believe I'm going to do this, but if that's really all you need to know, that it's from our site......here ya go, I'm ashamed for even feeling like anyone deserves to see anything we own, because you don't, but I KNOW there are some actual humans with logical brains reading this. This is really the only other thing I will ever feel the need to share in regards to this conversation. If you still want to think what you do, go for it.
You have chosen a very apt username.
Haejin gets over 50% of my voting power and will continue to get it. It didn't start out that way, he gradually earned that level over time as I could see more and more accurate information. Unlike most people that make predictions here and elsewhere he shares his methods, and has an extremely high accuracy rate. Some of his shorter posts need to be read in context with his tutorials and the information given out on his videos, they are far from uninformative if you are armed with that information, a picture tells a 1000 words. It is easy to make money holding cryptos these days but I for one have made a good deal more than I would have if I hadn't based some of my decisions on what @haejin has said.
I'm curious though, is he supposed to be gaming the system using an army of bots or is it one account giving 90% of his upvotes? With a number like 90% it can't really be both can it?
The ecosystem gives more up votes and comments making it look like his post is legitimate and has a lot more active followers and viewers which makes the huge amount that his post is worth look more legitimate. Basically faking legitimacy through obscurity, throwing some smoke up to hide.
OK there is some logic in that argument, soooo...has he used this elaborate scheme to fool one whale and four or five others like myself? Or do all six of us, real accounts see value in haejin's posts and use our voting power to up vote him perfectly legitimately?
If haejin owns the whale account then he doesn't need the blogs and the bot army to up vote himself. He could just create a new account every few days and upvote any random crap or self upvote comments made by the whale account. Or any number of other ways that would be far less work than actually producing the fake blog. steemcleaners etc don't have the voting power to take on a whale with the ability to allocate circa 6% of the reward pool. So I'm not buying that.
Really, even if everything @haejin says is utter crap or he just decides to post pictures of his dinner every night and gets the upvotes of 5 minnows and a whale, there is still no gaming happening.
Basically you don't agree with how some whale is allocating his or her voting power and somehow that is haejins fault. I have heard many people disagree with how berniesanders and his army of accounts allocate their voting power but they have the steem power, they can use it how they please. It goes both ways.
What is the problem again?
yes, exactly ... some have tried to tell haejins shills repeatedly that yes, the whale has a right to upvote and other whales have just as much right to downvote leaving haejin with what may be left. That isn't his fault.
What he needs to take some responsibility for is that he could be mitigating both sides of the equation by taking some of those short posts and putting them into a couple or even three posts spread out through the day
At one point the system penalized anyone who posted more than four times a day. A situation like this gives support to those who would like to return to a posting limit.
For the record, I have not suggested anywhere that others do not have a right to downvote. I have simply responded to what I see as personal attacks on a man's character.
I am in full agreement that there is a debate to be had over the allocation of rewards. Diminishing returns, caps on payout / posting etc. could all be used.
Call me old fashioned but a CAPS LOCK enabled rant attacking one individual and throwing around words like "rape" is hardly the best way to initiate any kind of adult conversation
have you checked that whale activity?
Yes, I see what appears to be a guy who was not part of the ninja mine but instead bought a f**k tonne of steem a few months back. He has no obvious connection to @haejin that I can see.
Should I be checking for something in particular?
Check this whale activite with other whales. Try to find a pattern...
Also, try to cross dates of when this whale buy steem, and when it starts voting for haejin
oh my gut
I am one of those accounts that just have been made to support haejin. I know him from youtube and wanted to actively support him because thats what he deserves imho. There are many like me which are simply grateful for all his work and that's how as an individual you can support him for his amazing work.
I have been searching for long to find a trustworthy TA in cryptos, I like his didactics and he got me motivated to study TA by myself.
I think you should feel ashamed posting this kind of empty accusations.
I got invited to steemit under a recomendation to follow one guy, and one guy only.
Just because I don't post doesn't mean I don't exist. I'm not as active on Steemit like you are, I have a life outside of steemit.
Same here. I was actively following him on twitter and once I heard he was being personally attacked I recently created a STEEM account to help aid him. I only follow 2 people on Twitter that provide crypto advice, 1 person on STEEM, and a few on Youtube.
I will say it just one more time before I leave this shit to Devs to look into. First of, I am not sure if you are aware or not, but for MANY (including me) cryptocurrencies is quite a new thing, especially the rise of the altcoins and systems. It was only recently I discovered Haejin who provided me information about TA. I am not providing you in depth details about all my gains and time of starting in investing, but it is just how it played out.
I cannot talk for all other voters/viewers on his posts but this is how I got to know the steem community. If there were more people providing crypto recommendations, whether is was technical or fundamental on Steemit, I would definitely check it out too and upvote, but where the hell are they?? You tell me.
Wanna see how good selfless crypto advice looks like? Check @cryptovestor
Look i have been trying to stay out of this whole thing but I just checked out this account and there is no information for me in there that i can use. The reason i say this is that anyone can talk about the big coins BTC,ETH, and now LTC due to its recent growth. I am still learning the whole crypto game and so i buy maybe 1/2 of those coins because the value is so high and not geared to everyone. Day-trading has become a big part of crypto and unless a coin goes up 25%+ I will not see anything from it on a partial coin. I have used @haejin for advice on the small alts that are affordable to me and are they 100% accurate no but i have made Way more than i could have imagined putting my initial startup money in just 1 coin. I would not have a steemit account nor would my account be powered up atm if it wasn't for day-trading.
If there is an issue with the payout scale than this is something that needs to be addressed but to attack someone who is providing solid advice to those that want it is uncalled for. Is this going to make me power down and close my account... No but it will prevent me from purchasing more steem and powering that up. I have seen posts get paid just as much or even more for someone trying to just profit on themselves and not giving advice.
By your definition of a fake account, I am fake! I joined only because of @haejin after I found him on YouTube by accident, and I now follow him quite religiously along with my roommate who also joined Steemit because he wanted to be able to comment, ask questions and be part of the crypto-analysis community around Haejins Blog!
You guys are flagging completely normal behavior!
Sockpuppet has just been confirmed!
I created an account to follow @Haejin and @Haejin only. I don't care for you or whatever content around here. His posts are good an honest and interest a lot of people who didn't even know about steemit before. I follow him since the beginning and yes, he did get exited and started to post more, but that is because he grew and had more requests. And that is on his success. Stop this crusade. It's dumb. If you want the system to change, do not blame him, blame the ones responsible to make steemit.
Absolute garbage. Most of not all on his blog are here, for his blog alone!
We’re trying to learn TA and he is s great teacher.
So he got some extra transition the last few days, so what! Grow up!
He's simply driving traffic from his Youtube channel. Nothing wrong with that.
You all do a lot of research!
This is a very interesting situation indeed. Me being a crytocurrency analyst myself; I'm not a huge fan of how he does his blog, but my opinion and .80 cents will buy you a cup of coffee at McDonalds. After reading through a number of his posts, I feel that in general, they seem to lacki in the content category. That said, this is a plus for some as they like to get to the meat and potatoes of an article with no interest in reading an authors colorful insight or creative use of metaphors and analogies.
Do I have an opinion in regards to using bots etc. Not one that I can substantiate, save the fact that if he was using nefarious means to upvote himself then that conduct should not be rewarded, if he wasn't then no harm no foul.
In regards to his sugar daddy whale and him accruing 6 percent of the entirety of the reward pool.. Again, touchy subject. Has he, through his hard work earned a lot of what he has? Sure.. He has been posting consistently for quite a while and for the most part been a dedicated Steemian just trying to make it. This again would be muted in the event that it was found out he was acted in a surreptitious manner to get where he is.
Onto the whale specifically. I think continually upvoting his posts to extraordinary dollar amounts is somewhat abusive of the reward pool and short sighted irresponsible behavior by a member with that much influence; again my opinion. I would hope that those at that level would look past their noses and toward the betterment of the platform and choose to evenly disperse rewards to a variety of up and coming Steemian authors.
Lets assume that Mr. Whale made some profit by taking the advice of @haejin and has made the choice to show his gratitude by up voting his posts. This I believe is fine to a point. If I had that level of influence, had profited from his advice, I would upvote a few of his posts big time in appreciation and then back it down considerably. I did my feel good deed, having rewarded him, but did not lose site of the overall goal of promoting the long term life of the platform which consists of many users.
While it may be unfair that this whale is consistently rewarding @haejin, and acting in a way that could be detrimental to the platform and its image; life is pretty much unfair all the time. The platform could shoulder a large portion of the blame as it runs on an Anarchist principle of self governance where each user is allowed to reward as often as they wish, in any amount they wish and only to those that they favor. As that is the current system; while unfair and allows for considerably disproportionate reward distribution; it is the system. So we have to work with what we have.
In looking at his blog, I think it has gotten to a somewhat ridiculous level at this point as there are many, many, Steemians that put in much more effort and produce far superior content. That said I am not going to slight him (provided he did nothing underhanded) for the efforts he put in by posting everyday, even if I find the content to be somewhat bland.
I think or hope that it will blow over at some point and this whale will look more into promoting the overall health of the site and the many users that inhabit it.
@pawsdog
I think that you make some good points. This discussion does boil down to the platform itself. There is that saying, "Don't hate the player, hate the game". I am wondering if that applies here. I am relatively new to the platform and if something out there erodes that trust in the platform then it could cause prospective users to not what to join the platform or newer users like me to leave the platform early on before investing more time.
As a new person, I would also agree with the comment that you made about people with influence upvoting to promote new people. I think this is important for the long-term health of the community. This will help the community grow and continue to sustain itself.
I agree with your well written and articulate points. I, while not a whale here have achieved whale status in other areas of interest and have a more philanthropic view on how you should conduct yourself in regards to those looking for a big break. If you want more information on that go here and find my comments as I'm not retyping all that twice.. https://steemit.com/photography/@pawsdog/steemit-quest-for-one-million-time-required-to-build-a-usd1-000-000-00-steemit-account-day-12-results
I agree, in that it is a don't hate the player, hate the game. I also sense that
I'm just going to keep grinding a way till a whale finds me.. :) I will worry about myself and the rest will take care of itself.
Again, another voice of reason in the wilderness. Thank you. The bullying needs to stop.
I agree.. and only feel that he should face repercussions in the event that he acted in bad faith to attain his current status. This being something that I have no information on so I cannot comment on it. As I said, he put in the work and everything occurring now is the result of his initial efforts. Again providing he was forthright and honest in his efforts to get there.
Some hard forks ago a maximum of four posts per day were fully rewarded. I think that was a very reasonable rule.
I think this was the problem that the 4 post a day rule was suppose to solve, so flagging wouldn't even be necessary if that rule was still in place
Was ever that rule implemented?
Previously there was a 4 post rule where after the 4th post in a day you rewards were significantly lowered.
@pandorasbox you may be right to think that @haejin may have unlock the secret to gain more rewards by posting to a certain speed and numbers a day. And I think that that is the way the system works in STEEM/Steemit. Then if everyone of us follow the same way I don't know the impact of these in the whole system. But since this is a social media type blockchain and rewards are based on posting, commenting, upvoting and blogging so we cannot stop people from reaping their rewards. Well the only thing that we may be able
to control is that there should be some limit per day as how many you can post and how many you can upvote and commenting. By then, we can control the quality of post that people can have.
Though it defeats the goal of having a quality posts if each user is only aiming for the rewards.
Yes, I think there are many problems in the current setup for STEEM.
I'm thinking perhaps we need to limit the max rewards to a certain % so that no single person can ever get more rewards than that.
But that would simply lead to people splitting up their efforts between multiple accounts and upvoting their own stuff, etc.
It's for things like this that we need digital identities like Civic. One person, one account, one reward.
Can someone explain to me the ethical stigma surrounding downvoting? On any other site, Reddit, Youtube, etc. downvoting is never an issue. One of the biggest problems with Steemit right now is the waves of bullshit spam content you have to wade through before getting to real material.
there's a spammed wall of content that's half hearted, meanwhile i pour 4 hours into creating something and putting it together and jump through hoops to get it uploaded to d.tube only for me to be the only person who upvoted my own post even though its original work? not 1 other person upvoted my last post other than myself and my blog is being repressed because its not "quality". one account I noticed would claim to draw 'popular' mainstream anime that's clearly just downloaded from google, or 'draw' pewdiepie but it was clearly a pic changed to black and white but gets more upvotes than my original art.
Downvoting spam is perfectly fine in my eyes. Downvoting a Steemian just because he earns a lot, isn't.
If it's the system that's broke we shouldn't be attacking individuals, but rather the system
Well, the whole idea behind flagging is the ability to self regulate the economy and make sure people like haejin don't get more than they deserve. Literally as you flag it says for a reason to flag, "disagreement with payouts."
People need to stop crying about flagging. It is part of the idea of Steem. Not some crazy terrible thing.
Flagging is fine to an extent. Starting a post citing a riot to "pile on" another user is flat out bullying and shouldn't be tolerated on any platform.
I definitely agree with you that the system is broken. Of course, Steemit is going through heavy growing pains right now, and it's only exacerbated by the insane price of SBD. I'm happy for haejin and glad that he's doing very well for himself, but I understand that his frequent-posting behavior ultimately hurts all users on the platform. That kind of behavior might encourage flagging until a better solution can be found - the first reason listed to flag is disagreement over reward values.
the individuals that profit from the broken system fight to protect that flaw in the system, thus we must fight them to fight the flaws.
you described the problem pretty well.
You just received my up-vote. These morons don't understand that! Smfh
click the flag, and check the first reason you should flag a post.
and the 4th
You have a point here. I was wondering why @haejin didn't just do a few posts per day. But his followers love him. They claim to have made tons of cash following him, so I guess someone who he is helping to make 25k in a fortnight ain't gonna complain about his winnings.
They should power up their winnings and Power Up and vote for him. Or pay him directly.
Exactly, there is loophole in the system itself that needs to be regulated but since STEEM/ Steemit is a social
media community then how can we regulate social media posts and contents which are basically what makes the system works. People can upvote whatever or whoever they want to support whether a friend or a well known person or based on upvotes. I myself can just ride on the popularity of a post by just going to trending and hot tags by just keeping reply and comments all along.
This is probably the most balanced response I've seen during this debate. I've been a steemit user since Jan/Feb. I've learned quite a bit from various traders on the platform like @quickfingersluc and @exodous but @Haejin is the one I log into steemit every day to see what he's posted. The majority of Haejin's posts are videos where he walks through the TA and gives advice. Watch one of his EW teaching videos linked at the bottom of one of his posts before you launch into a tirade about the quality of his posts.
This is the second or third time I've seen Bernie attack someone over perceived abuse of the rewards pool. I agree that whales seem to have too much weight in rewards and that the algorithm for rewards needs improvement. It's also abuse when someone like Bernie purposefully attacks and shames someone like Haejin or Michelle.gent after they've contributed to the site for a long time and have organically grown their followers.
You've been on this since January of 2017 and you haven't had time to change your profile picture ?
Read his post in bold "@ned, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO ADDRESS THE VOTING ABUSE ON THIS BLOCKCHAIN?". He did not say "@ned, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO ADDRESS THE Haejin ABUSE ON THIS BLOCKCHAIN?". He specifically said VOTING ABUSE.
Yes, and the title says '@haejin is raping the rewards pool', which implies some kind of ill intent. I was replying to that and trying to shed some light on that mostly.
I can't believe that Haejin's success is being attacked! He has given tons to steemit and the crypto community. Many have made massive profits and learned technical analysis due to his efforts. Incredible, really if Haejin's success cannot be celebrated then I'd say steemit is screwed! Once you guys figure out how to make really successful people appear mediocre, then we can all sign up for a commie socialistic hybrid of dog sh#t
@berniesanders does seem jealous at first - he said "nobody DESERVES" 6% of the pool, in true marxist fashion BUT- I still can't believe Steemit is so easy to game! Wasn't this first question they should have had in version 1.0 ? "What if someone builds a private bot net?" - "What if someone pays a click farm?" - "What if someone pays for clicks?"
Was Steemit's only thought that they could depend on a berniesanders to make the system fair???!!! LMFAO ;-)
I too am puzzled by the lack of developer intervention to fix this issue
add to it, what if everyone have an auto-upvote that keeps on voting what ever each person post?
I would agree with the true marxist fashion comment.
There's mention of improvements the community has suggested, but no links. Any idea what those are? Diminishing returns on enormous SP values? A percentage cap of the reward pool that any given user can receive in a day?
@pandorasbox, I hate to say this but you are not doing your home-work. That reward pool sucker profit maniac is the one responsible for up-voting his own crap! Think, think, think.
You're right, I didn't do much homework on this, and still haven't tbh, but after my initial comment I've learned additional things that did alter my perspective on the situation since then. Thread got too big to handle and answer everything though