Wailing About Whales And Other Steemit Tales: RETRACTION

in #steemit6 years ago (edited)

PLEASE BE AWARE—DATA IS INCOMPLETE

I had hoped my days of retracting or clarifying were over, but apparently not. I guess that's what happens when I take on a project that I wasn't fully understanding how to get all the information for. Meaning, in this specific case, I didn't account for proxy voting among whales not showing up under their own witness votes tab on Steemworld where I got the information.

Which means the numbers I cite below are off for the whales, and are probably off for the orcas, as well. It also means that my conclusions will be off, too. How off, without delving into things, I don't know, but at this point, I'm done delving.

Just For The Record

The number of actual voting whales appears to be 19, the twelve that I report below who vote for themselves and seven more who vote by proxy. Those seven add over 12 million SP, with 7.8 million of it coming from one account.

This means that a majority of whales actually do vote for witnesses, particularly if the Steemit related accounts are excluded.

Also, as far as my conclusions at the bottom of this post go, while these new numbers don't necessarily point to anything untoward going on between whales as a group, they still can point to individual whales. However, I still believe the numbers themselves can't really show intent without further investigation, which I won't be doing.

Not Deleting This Post

In deciding what to do, rather than delete this entire post, I'm leaving it with this advisement of incomplete data, mainly for myself, as a reminder that even when I think I have my ducks in a row, there might be ducks I don't know about. Hopefully, it will also let anyone else know who might go reading this to move on.

An Apology

I apologize to anyone who this might have inconvenienced or misled. Neither were my intention. My purpose for this post was to relay what I found when collecting data. It was not my intent to point it in any direction or draw any conclusions that were more favorable to one party or another. I just wanted to report my findings.

While I still intend to produce STEEM related topics when inspired, I think I will step back from any major data pulls at this point, mainly because I'm not equipped to do them quickly or accurately.

THE ORIGINAL POST STARTS HERE

The Inspiration

In a couple of fairly recent posts, @taskmaster4450 has tackled the issue of whale blame, where anything that could be bad about the STEEM platform ends up at the feet, (the tail?) of the STEEM whales. I believe they're worth reading so by all means check out those posts and others Taskmaster has written.

I'd like to expand on this whale theme and extend it to another claim: The STEEM whales are buying the Top 20 witnesses with their votes.

spirituality998547_1280.jpg
Image source—Pixabay.

Witnesses Are Bought And Paid For

I don't know if this continues to be a prevailing thought or not, but it was bandied about in posts I read within the first few months of being here. It was easy to think that such might be the case, too. When distribution of stake is a hot topic, anything directly or indirectly related to it seems to follow suit. That doesn't make any of it true, however.

But could it be true? Are whales exercising undue influence over witnesses through their votes?

Stake Weighted Witness Voting

To set the table, let's have a brief look at how witness voting takes place here on STEEM. Like many things on the platform, witness voting is based on stake, so the more SP, or MVests you hold, the greater your vote. It's not a one account, one vote proposition. So, if you have 100,000 SP and you vote for a witness, it moves a witness up the ladder faster than a 10 SP vote does.

The Definition Of A Whale

There seems to be a few out there, and it can confuse things. In a general sense, it seems like any account that is significantly large can end up in the whale category. That would include larger minnows and dolphins. When you're a red fish or a smaller minnow, everyone else looks huge. And since by far the most active accounts fall into the red fish category, followed by minnows, I wonder if the perception of what a whale is isn't being skewed.

For the purpose of this post, I will be using the Steemitboard established nomenclature where levels are based on, again, SP or more appropriately, MVests.

To get to be a minnow, you need 1 million Vests, or 1 MVest. This equates to just under 500 SP (right now it's 494.708 SP), which is generally rounded up for convenience sake. Subsequently, to be considered a dolphin, you need 10 MVests, or not quite 5,000 SP. Orcas are 100 MVests and true STEEM whales are made at the 1,000 MVests level.

So, that account sitting at 40,000 SP that's screwing everything up for you isn't even an orca yet, let alone a whale. I know. That much SP is huge in comparison to 10 SP or less. Believe it or not, though, they're not capable in and of themselves of mucking things up as badly as you might think.

Screen Shot 20180919 at 9.28.00 AM.png
Image source—Steemdb.

The Top 100 In Terms Of SP

I went and looked at the top 100 SP/MVest holders since 100 is a commonly used amount that is often considered as holding some weight.

Those who are aware of the numbers will note this means I have not only considered actual whales (there are only 36). As some of the higher orcas are near whale status, and because I wanted a weightier sample, I included 64 orcas, all of which hold over 150,000 SP.

Most Whales Don't Vote

At the time of my sampling last week, of the 36 accounts considered to be whales based on MVests, only 12 were voting at all. Of those 12, just four voted the maximum 30, while three voted for 19, 23 and 29 witnesses. The remaining five had voted for three, five, five, six and 11.

To break it down even further, of the whales with more than one million SP, representing the top 16, only four were voting (with the number of witnesses at 5, 6, 30 and 19, respectively). In other words, of the 103,145,933.07 SP among the Top 16 as of the sampling, 8,707,883.60 was being used to vote for witnesses. While 25% of the Top 16 voted, they represent 8.44% of the Top 16's SP.

It needs to be noted that the Top 3 STEEM whales are associated with Steemit Inc.—steemit, misterdelegation and steem. Combined, they held 73,511,887.57 SP, or the vast majority of the SP among the Top 16. Of that amount, most of it was held by steemit with 44,513,489.79.

A Closer Look

Drilling down more, of the collective 221 votes cast (of 360 available) by these 12 whales, 83 were for different witnesses. Only nine of these witnesses had votes of six or more, with the highest garnering eight. Three witnesses had five votes. The remaining 61 had four or less.

Of the nine witnesses with six or more whale votes, eight are in the Top 20, with one just outside. Among the 11 remaining Top 20 witnesses, three had five whale votes, and five had four.

Most Orcas Don't Vote, Either

Though a higher percentage of them do. Of the Top 64 orcas, 30 were voting. Of the latter, once again only four were using all 30 of their witness votes, while 15 voted for 17 to 29 and 10 voted for two to 14.

These 30 orcas hold 7,562,950.33 SP between them, roughly 1.14 million SP less than the 12 voting whales. Only 514 of the total 900 votes available for witnesses are being allocated.

Conclusion

If we're talking strictly whales, most don't vote, even if we exclude the Top 3 steemit related accounts. So, it's hard to blame all whales for whatever real or perceived woes might exist among the witnesses. Of the 12 whales who do vote, just seven are voting for a majority of witnesses, and only eight of the Top 20 witnesses are receiving six or more votes from those 12 whales.

While the potential for a concentration of power among witnesses is possible, and many of the Top 20 witnesses surely benefit from multiple whale votes, it's difficult to look at the numbers and say all whales are colluding. It's also impossible to look at the numbers and say the witnesses who are voted for by whales are somehow in their back pocket.

Whales seem to be voting like the rest of us. If they vote at all, they're voting for all kinds of witnesses.

Editor's Note: The numbers were taken manually from Steemit, Steemdb and Steemworld. Since whales can vote at any time just like anyone else, it's possible some of these numbers have changed since then, but probably not in a significant way. Information for this post was drawn over Thursday, September 13 to Friday, September 14, 2018.

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Must have taken a while to get all the stats.

I don't know where the whale hate comes from, it's probably jealousy? That's what most hate is about. 🤔

But anyway, as for voting, while personally I think buying votes is morally wrong, people can do what they like with their stake, and if they want to sell a vote they have every right.

Hey, @pjau.

It did take quite a bit of time. I'm thinking five hours or so to go through the Top 100 and another three to organize, write, doublecheck and edit. So, basically a normal day's worth of work. Worth it? No. But I wanted to know for myself what was going on, and now I have a better idea, regardless of what happens with the post.

re: whale hate

Well, I think it's a misunderstanding of who a whale is, and then further lack of knowledge and information. If you're bereft of facts, it's easy to come up with whatever conclusions seems to fit your logic. That's not to say that there aren't actual bad whales, or orcas, or other creatures in the STEEM ecosystem. By all accounts, there's hundreds if not thousands of red fish spamming and plagiarizing and scamming, so there's that.

It just never really works that well to look at a group and because they share at least one characteristic, treat them as if they're all one organism. People are too different to be classified under one heading, including those with whale-sized SP.

re: vote buying/selling

I'm not sure if I agree they have every right. Vote selling is illegal for elections in the U.S., and anytime it happens on a council or committee, it's investigated and penalties are dropped if guilty, so whether or not it's allowed here, or better said, not disallowed, sets a bad precedent and I would imagine, presents a prickly legal issue if someone ever wanted to push it. They'd have to provide proof it exists, of course, which in my estimation would be tough unless that's what the Top 20 super secret chat room is for. :)

At any rate, I don't know that the numbers are consistent enough to determine vote selling, undue influence, collusion, or whatever else people might want to throw at the whales or the witnesses.

Hey @glenalbrethsen.

So last night I clicked resteem, then 2 seconds later the internet in my whole area went out. I was about to reply to you. LOL

Hey you never know it might be worth it, maybe the post will index well in Google and you get a bunch of nice whale followers over time. :) I'm sure they are constantly searching for answers to why people hate them 😂

If you're bereft of facts, it's easy to come up with whatever conclusions seems to fit your logic.

Definitely agree with that.

To be honest I'd rather have one 100,000SP account doing bad then having ten thousand 10SP accounts or a thousand 100SP etc.

They'd have to provide proof it exists

Some account's in the past have been pretty open about buying votes. As for legality, I hope it stays decentralised and we are not somehow forced to creating a backdoor for them to do as they please with controlling it all.

re: resteem

Well, normally I would appreciate such a thing very much. In this case, I may have done you a disservice. As I've added to the beginning of the post, I didn't account for seven whales who vote by proxy, and they're significantly sized, one in particular, that it changes things more than a little as far as numbers go.

Still not inclined to whale hate—I think at this point there needs to be a coming together somehow—but anyway.

re: if you're bereft of facts

That's famous last words uttered by me now. :) Except, I wasn't intentionally trying to fit any logic. Doesn't really matter intent, I guess.

I may have done you a disservice

It doesn't matter, it's probably only bots following me :p

Hi There Glen the voting with, by or through whales is a big thing here. Your math seems to add up and must have been alot off work. But is hurts us and them again its not possible to do something other than sticking to your own plan and work you ASS Off. Either the whale Will find you or not 😉

Hey, @brittandjosie.

Well, this post was basically about whales voting for people to be witnesses, but it's true, as far as those of us working the social media apps on STEEM, we've just got to have a good plan, and as you say, stick to it. There are fewer actual whales upvoting posts than there are voting for someone to be a witness, so the likelihood of that happening is more or less restricted to a curie upvote.

There are several more orcas upvoting, too, but many of them don't either. There's a lot of delegating going on right now to either apps, bots, or both. Not a whole lot of delegation among the Top 100 ends up in the hands of the lower 100,000-plus just for posting and curation.

I knieband that Sucks BIG TIME than again When I dont want to loose the 9 months behind me and the time invested in steemit I have to stay focussed and blog 3-4 times aday to get the little money I have and reach more engagement here for the future. But is is unfair? YES offcourse I would live a few upvotes just to let the steemisfere know that the or as and whales do vote for the little ones ( mean myself Glen not you 😉)but I think Thats wishfull thinking, what do you think? Maybe a New challange WHO HAS THE SOLUTION? But we need to take it step by step what do you think has tobe done FIRST and by who?

I wish I knew what the solution was as far as improving visibility goes. That's really the problem. Visibility. People don't see people's posts. Then, they don't read them. Too many people are here to create and not curate. So, when people don't see content and then don't really read what they see, doesn't help.

That's why you have all the workarounds of bidbots and self-upvoting and circle voting and whatever else there might be. It's because of the lack of visibility, and then engaged users.

I was hoping that Communities would do something about that, and I was hoping it would be here before they even announced the hard fork. But it's not. Haven't heard a word about it since before the HF 20 and SMTs announcements. My guess is, it's back burner now, with resources pulled to take care of the other two.

Who knows, though. Maybe there will be an update through the steemitblog about it.

Problem is, I think anyone who's aware of the visibility issue and knows how to code is probably running a bidbot because it's faster to set up and more profitable than creating something to compete with Steemit, Busy, Steempeak and whatever else might be out there with the more established dApps.

Not very helpful, am I?

I think solutions exist. I think there are people who are skilled enough to make them work. I don't know if they have the resources or the backing to do it.

None of that really changes what the whales or upper orcas will do with regards to curation. Communities will hopefully make it easier for those across the spectrum who are engaged to find the content they want to curate. But unless someone puts it together, we're pretty stuck using what we have, which isn't horrible. It has some things going for it. They're just not used the way they were meant to be used.

Glenn that is the problem I also think that not all steemians are aware of the visibility issues and think people di See their post but maybe dont like it. I Made some great oo es and Made 10 cents that hurts bit if you cannot deal whit that you have to leave because its the sour truth.

.....knows how to code is probably running a bidbot because it's faster to set up and more profitable than creating something to compete with Steemit, Busy, Steempeak and whatever else might be out there with the more established dApps.....
YES Thats the basis if we could Change that maybe There can be a New beginning but I doubt it. So I Made myself a promise to go for it -99 % for 12 months and I am sticking to that. 💪☺️

re: change that

There have been calls by others to increase the amount of curation rewards to 50-50 from the 75-25 creator-curator split that it is now. As far as I know, that hasn't gone anywhere. It was made in part as a way for higher SP to be more engaged rather than delegating SP to bidbots or dApps. I'm not sure that the change would actually encourage orcas and whales to curate more—time is always going to be a factor and delegation doesn't take time—but there are ideas and solutions popping up all around, like the one buggedout mentions from ura-soul. Whether they go anywhere is another story.

I hope on the other story soon

Hey, @buggedout.

I've read through that post, and I'm behind the concept. I wonder how far it can get, though. It would be great if one of the non-Steemit apps decided to adopt it.

howdy sir Glen! wow, talk about work! man..putting all this stuff together takes a certain analytical mind and it shows. But this is so interesting and blows the theory of witnesses being bought with votes totally. this is a tremendous post and my sp is down to 34% so I'm trying not to vote for a few hours.

Hey, @janton.

I'm not sure about the 'tremendous' part. Buggedout made me aware of something I overlooked when I went checking whales for witness votes. Turns out, seven more use witness proxies (that's the whale—haven't checked the orcas), and so their voting doesn't show up in the witness vote tab on Steemworld where I got the information. And I'm afraid it does change things. The question is, does that constitute something bad? I'm not immediately inclined to believe so, but in a couple cases, the proxies are odd (low SP, probably dead fish accounts), and a couple have more than one layer, as in a proxy with a proxy.

So, now I'm wishing I'd just stayed away from the whole thing because I need to retract numbers and my conclusions. And in doing so, end up drawing unwanted attention, probably. :)

Good thing I have experience with retractions.

sir Glen...good thing you have experience with retractions...lol. that's funny but it's not funny. Sorry to hear that. Now you're going to try to get it more correct or just retract it?

I've added a retraction to the top of the post. Correcting it would take more work than it's already worth, and at this point, it's just better to let it die. As far as I know, it's been resteemed once, so it could be kicking around some feeds still, but it really shouldn't draw any more attention.

oh ok sir Glen that sounds right, I doubt if you'll get any grief over it.

I have considered doing a full analysis on this with a proper methodology but it's fairly clear to me what's going on here. I have no desire to do a buttload of work for zero rewards, likely cop flags and a trashed reputation.

Hey @buggedout. Nice to see you. :)

Not sure if you're calling me out on something here or not, but I can't blame you for not wanting to go full on with this. While I can't claim proper methodology, I did spend plenty of time on this myself, and so I can only imagine how much more that might take you.

I've seen that graphic before, but I don't remember where. Also, it doesn't look current based on other witness page sources.

Sorry mate, I wasn't calling you out on methodology. Apologies if I was coming across as obnoxious. I got that info from here :-

http://www.steemreports.com/witness-voters/

You are correct. It does seem to contradict data elsewhere. Maybe because it only updates weekly or maybe it's no longer maintained. Still, it's not that different for me to think anything has really changed in the ecosystem.

Well, no worries on the methodology. I don't have a scientific background by any means and only dabble in statistics from a business standpoint. That's not to say I'm not trying to be accurate or draw appropriate conclusions, just that my methodology is my own. :)

Okay. Steemreports is up to date on other parts of it but I'm questioning this one. Steemworld has freedom listed as having no witness votes at all, so something is off one way or another. And since I got a lot of my information from Steemworld regarding witness votes, I need another source now to tell which is accurate. :/

He uses a proxy. If you're into stats then have a look at the Top 30 and see what % of them currently enjoy his patronage. Then have a look at what would happen to the Top 20 (who get the bulk of the mining reward) if the current patronage was removed and given to the next 30 without it. What % of the Top 20 would change?

Okay. I've taken a look at all the whales, and like freedom, there are six more who vote via proxy. I'm afraid this changes things quite a bit as far as whale involvement and witnesses are concerned. With freedom, at a glance, it does substantially. Now I'm wishing I'd not tackled this. :) Wouldn't be the first time I had to write a retraction. In doing so, should I mention you put me on track, or should I just leave you out of it?

Don't worry. From what I've seen it happens to everyone who ventures too far down the rabbit hole.

carpet_sweep.gif

There is no need to mention my name.

Retraction has been added to the top of the post and I've left you out of it. :)

Here's another clue :-

I was aware of the delegation from another post I was thinking about doing. Obviously, there's an affinity for vote bots, and I'm sure that if I went looking, I would find some witnesses beyond the obvious ones listed.

You would indeed. There is a naturally symbiotic relationship between the groups. Maybe I am being defeatist and have given up already but I feel it's pretty pointless drawing the spotlight to it since it's very easy to obfuscate the linkage by creating new accounts or adding silent partners.

Thanks for taking the time to put this all together. I don't usually concern myself with the whining of others but still an interesting set of data to have. I imagine many of the early mining whales are enjoying themselves off their residuals now and don't spend a lot of time worrying about the day to day happenings around here.

Hey, @practicalthought.

I'd say that's very true in many ways. Which is probably just as well they weren't here to follow all of the back and forth. And while it does seem that those who are involved are in some way putting witnesses into the Top 20 (kind of hard not to with all the SP), it would be far worse if the other 18 or so that might not be STEEM related were all voting, too. In other words, while it's not necessarily a majority say, I think the rest of us who are voting have more of a collective say than we think.

I just ran across a two-year-old post saying that three other whale accounts were also set up by Steemit, meaning they might be devs, too. I wonder how many of all of those folks are still even working for Steemit? It would be nice if there were a way, let alone easy, to determine whose accounts were whose and whether they were affiliated with Steemit or not. Mostly, it feels like putting together a jigsaw puzzle.

Yeah, then there is the fact some have created a lot of accounts and diluted the holdings into them so we probably have whales we don't know about. It would make sense to do that in case something ever got compromised the hacker would only get a percentage. Then you have the ones who probably do it to play games.

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