Bible discussion with an Atheist.
I've been having a Bible discussion with a new steemian who is an atheist. Her name is @anjkara. The thread was getting pretty lengthy and veering from the original theme of the post, and the author hates religion so I thought it best to bring the discussion here.
Let's pick up where we left off here in the comment @anjkara.
Can you ask your mates not to flag me if they disagree with me. I'm only here to discuss and explore. There's no hate or disrespect here. I've already been savaged by whales :S
None of them will flag you. We are not the type to just flag a disagreement. Down right hate speech and attacks do get flagged like what happened to zool.
cool :)
Nope no flagging here in discussion.
READ THE GUIDELINES
What not to
Since downvoting is a kind of censorship, it must be applied with care.
Stop spamming this post with the same image @herrleeb or you will be flagged for spamming, which is another flaggable offense.
We should all be able to disagree and still be friends
👍🏻. Looking forward to hearing it.
that's good. I'll relax now :D
@anjkara to answer about God's word and translation. Men monkey things up (that's an evolution pun from some of our previous discussion) alot. Meanings and proper understanding get lost in translation.
What not to
Since downvoting is a kind of censorship, it must be applied with care.
yes, translations are tricky. What flummoxes me is that surely god would make sure his texts were accessible to all his creation, especially if he loves them?
He gives man free will. The scriptures tell that nature itself speaks to his glory.
The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Psalms 19:1 NKJV
The firmament is the dome that covers the earth.
(Scientific sidenote, a vacuum can not exist next to a pressurized atmosphere without a physical barrier)
Firmament: my brother's a flat-earther. He's been showing me stuff today which is half convincing, I have to say.
I don't know your brother but if he's a Flat Earther then I already love him! Is he on steemit?
hahah my bro is the best. Loveliest person I know. I told him to join steemit today!!! :D He'll be coming soon. I'll tag you when he arrives :)
he believes in a creator too
I love your brother even more. I can't wait to meet him! Have a good night @anjkara sleep well.
It would be very kind of you, Sir, if you comment on a post if you have a different opinion.
DOWNVOTING is not for DISAGREEMENT.
What not to
Since downvoting is a kind of censorship, it must be applied with care.
thanks. you too
@anjkara I’m going to let others take over from here. I just want to leave with a couple comments first. I want to thank you for the opportunity to share with you. I enjoyed the discussion! And also, after is all is said, go ahead and sincerely and honestly ask God to show you the truth. He will answer. At worst, you will feel silly talking to someone you believe doesn’t exist. At best, you’re life will be changed.
thanks for sharing too. It was fun. Happy new year as well :)
I'll jump in with comments soon. I need to cogitate a bit before I jump in.
Nice to see a new thread on this topic.
Hiyas. Happy to be here. All about learning the ins and outs.
Like I said earlier... It's half ten at night here. I need a bath before bed. Do you wanna pick any topics to play with? I don't mind which ones you choose. All fun :D
It'd be great if other people could join in too. The more the merrier.
Why not just start from Gen 1:1 and work forward?
sounds like a reasonable place to start. Dwells and I started at the beginning but I'm happy to start over again.
I was curious about the 'let there be light' happening a few days before god created the sun and stars
Light was from the stars and moon. No different than a night sky, it is still light but a difference from sunlight.
he doesn't create the stars or moon until the third day
You would still have light. And there are other moons and stars.
There's no mention of them.
BTW I'm reading from here: https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Genesis-Chapter-1/
Is that the right bible?
That works for this discussion. There is no "right" Bible. There are some that are better translations than others. The KJV is a good base to start from.
sound. Ok, I'm pushing onto 11:25 -- not the chapter:verse :p -- and I need my bath before bed. I'd love to come back tomorrow and get stuck in some more.
I'm going out to a party tomorrow night but I'm happy to discuss in the daytime. If there's anything you really wanna get stuck in to, I'd love to read (and then join) the discussion.
Come on back in the morning! We will be here.
from where?
Universe
I disagree @weetreebonsai. Even if it's other stars they still did not come in til day 4.
Are we talking 'light' in a metaphorical sense then? As in, things are coming into being, all being revealed? Illuminated?
And Elohim made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night, and the stars.
Berĕshith (Genesis) 1:16 TS2009
It wouldn't have been the stars and moon, they came about at the same time as the sun.
I've never heard of Elohim or Bereshith. Are we in the same bible?
Sorry. I normally use a version called The Scriptures, TS2009. It is a more accurate translation of the original Hebrew text. It uses the actual name of God instead of replacing it with The Lord. I'll use the KJV or NKJV from here on out.
ah haha ok
Elohim is like a title for God. When the KJV says The Lord your God, the Hebrew say YHVH your Elohim.
nice. Love the learning :)
The best way I know how to describe it is based on what we read later on we know that when he says light it's not talking about a light source as in the sun it's talking about something else. that's one of those words that I believe the meaning of it is Lost in Translation. The best thing that I could say is is when God said let there be light or whatever he said in whatever language he used is that the physical world came into existence, time came into existence, matter came into existence, energy came into existence, all in a Split Second things existed other than him.
I see what you mean, but in v5 he talks about separating into day and night... these are traditionally caused by the sun setting
In our modern understanding yes. But if it's talking about time, then he divides time in to day time and night time, knowing that in 3 days he's going to create sun, moon and stars.
I think he's referring to light and dark here:
Genesis 1:5
“And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”
King James Bible for this discussion?
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Genesis-Chapter-1/ ?
I prefer The Scriptures, but yeah I would say the KJV or NKJV is probably what @anjkara is used to.
if there's an online version of your fav bible scriptures, I'm happy to reference from there. No probs
“And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.”
Revelation 21:23 ESV
http://bible.com/59/rev.21.23.esv
Genesis ch1
It seems as though God is creating some sort of light source external to himself rather than radiating his glory. After saying, 'Let there be light' he sees the light. It is something tangible which can be separated into light and dark. Would this be possible with his glory light?
If his glory is all illuminating, why would he separate some off into darkness?
Hi @anjkara! I wanted to jump in with my own 2 cents if you don’t mind! I by no means am a bible scholar, so I could totally be wrong. God made everything from nothing, right? So it’s definitely possible for God to make light just exist from nothing so to speak. Like dwells mentioned, maybe knowing He was going to make the sun and moon later, he made the light ahead of time. I know it maybe seems like a cheesey answer, but it’s not possible to completely understand God. That’s where faith comes in. I can’t wrap my head around the fact that He could possibly know the number of hairs on every person’s head. But God is not limited to mere human understanding. Anyways, I hope that made a little sense? Lol
sorry... I meant to add that he sees the suffering and does nothing to ease it.
I can see what you mean. That first leap of faith is the hardest, because you don’t have anything to go on. But once you’ve seen His work firsthand, continuing to have faith becomes easier, because you have times to look back on where He came through.
As far as the suffering of the innocent goes, I’m sure you’ve heard many time the argument of free will. Evil exists in this world and people do evil things. But God brings out good from the evil. Idk if you followed the whole cool thing and how that came about, but it was my post that brought it all about. He called me a religious bigot and tried to make me look bad. (Very minor account versus the rape situation, I know) However, look what happened. He brought a community of people together to support me. Not only that, but because of all that, we are now talking to you! I don’t believe that is a coincidence.
There’s something I always go back to when I think of suffering. God Himself watched His perfect innocent son die a horrible death. If God Himself was not exempt from such suffering, why would we expect we are?
That's a beautiful reply. Thanks.
I saw the one post about a religious biggot (me and Dwells had a convo on there). I'll go through your posts and have a nosey. It's not a minor suffering -- abuse is horrible to be on the end of. Personally, I don't understand why that happens. It seems unnecessary and counterproductive. It seems some people are as religious about their atheism as some fundamentalists. I'm somewhere floating around -- my quest is for truth. If my opinions change in the light of truth, that's a good thing. My ego isn't attached to a thought or a belief. It's not my identity.
I think I understand what you mean about seeing things firsthand and finding god in there somehow. For me, that's like confirmation bias. We think something is the case and lock onto 'evidence' that confirms our belief. Something good happens, we see god. Something's touching or beautiful, that's god showing us. If something bad happens, it's free will and evil.
I can't wrap my head around someone letting their son suffer when they have the power to stop it all. He can do miracles. He made evil too. Why would a loving god play games like that?
Why would a loving god play games like that?
As a parent we have learned that we set the example for our children.
Do we let them harm themselves if we can stop it?
Experience is a great teacher and because of our free will (yes kids have it also) sometimes we just have to stand back and let them learn.
As God we are assured his son was going back to him so the only loss was to us not him.
Good question. It depends on the situation. I think we let our kids go so far but draw the line somewhere before the kid is in mortal danger.
Messiah returning to god: if I were god, I would've worked in a loophole to prevent the incredible suffering of my kid. tbh, I'd flood the entire world and start again from scratch before I'd kill my own kid.
I'm gonna sort lunch now. Back soonly
I would like to argue that God did not make evil. I would argue that evil is the absense of God, or it happens because people abstain from God, however you want to word it. You could say it exists because of Him, but it is not directly from Him.
There was a grand purpose for Yeshua’s(Jesus’s) death. It was out of love that He died. I know what you mean though, why would God send His son to die. But also, why did Yeshua obey? He could have just as easily said no. But again, it was out of love that He fulfilled this purpose.
119 ministries has a few great videos that go into detail explaining this whole love story. When I first realized what the Bible really says, I was blown away. It’s sad that Christianity today doesn’t see this story.
Post relevant links so everyone is on the same page...
Thanks for the videos headsup. I'm more of a reader than a watcher. In my experience, videos can be manipulative and play on the emotions. Cold hard text is where I'm comfier. If you've got anything to read, I'd appreciate that.
From where did evil come? In this context, god created the universe and everything in it. How did it get through? If everything was made by an all good, loving god, surely there'd be no design flaws. God doesn't make mistakes. Evil would be impossible under that system. Either it was written into the plan – like in a videogame – or? I dunno.
What is evil? Is it inherent? Do we say something is evil based on actions? Genocide, for example:
have to disagree with this. There are many non-evil people who abstain from god. I'd argue the opposite to be the case in some instances. Take jihadists... they kill innocent people in the name of god. Christians, when they had more power, had a pretty good kill-spree too. All in the name of god. You've read about the witch trials in Europe (especially Gutenberg)? Terrible suffering. Many were tortured and executed.
There are many victims of holy priests. These guys don't abstain from god but their actions are demonstrably evil.
Brilliant question. I really don't know why he'd go along with that plan. What does everyone think? He seems to regret it at some point:
of course, the more the merrier :D
I think that's why I'm atheist - trust issues lol. I just find it impossible to make the leap of faith and allow myself to believe the improbable without something solid to back it up.
Yes, the god of the bible can do anything. He can do miracles and defy laws of nature and physics and chemistry... It's a great story.
Hairs on the head. That's a curious detail for him to know. If he knows this, he also knows the suffering of innocent people (children with cancer, rape/murder victims, these bloody nits I was given for Christmas by god-knows-who. I think my problem is that the bible claims this is so but in all the years people have studied it, there's never been any proof.
isn't the lamb Jesus? He hasn't appeared in the story so far
He quoted from Revelation. He just jumped to the back of the book. The verse he referenced has not happened yet. He made a very good point about light though. Thanks @beatitudes8
@anjkara You will find that Christians tend to jump from OT to Revelations (Book of Apocalypse) fairly often. I do not know why. As a Catholic by upbringing and a free theologian by choice, I find it amusing that they preach the Gospel of Jesus yet revert to Judaism as suits. Sure we are all (Jew, Christian, Muslim) of the Abrahamic faith, but to chop and change as suits is symptomatic of not actually understanding what Jesus represented, even though he explicitly states in several places that his word replaces that which had come before. In other words, do away with the old and embrace the new.
Incorrect.
Hey @anjkara, did your brother make it to steemit? I can't seem to find the comment where you gave me his user name.
He signed up but hasn't contacted me or posted anything yet. Or even followed me lol :D
His name:
bsibill
I'll point him at you when he gets his arse into gear. Probs talk to him over the weekend.
I hope you and yours are well and happy :)
I thought about that, that maybe that was when the Messiah came in to being.
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
John 8:12 NKJV
I would've thought the messiah's arrival would've been mentioned. It's pretty important
His arrival in human form was. But at the dawn of creation there was nothing to announce it to, of course he wasn't in human form at that point. That aspect may be a little to in depth right now.
I had another thought about the messiah. God knew what was coming for the world, people, etc. He knew he'd be sending a messiah to be king of earth. The messiah has an important place in the story. If he always existed, I don't understand why he's not mentioned as being an important player in the beginning.
To quote Dr. River Song from Doctor Who, "Spoilers!"
All kidding aside, I don't see the need for him to mention him from the beginning, but at the same time he does mention him from the beginning, just not in a direct way.
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15 NKJV
The he that is capitalized is referencing the Messiah.
haha :D
Hang on... I've got to read Gen 2 and catch up to where you're at
Ok, but are we really skipping the part where he makes a man out of dust? And the tree of knowledge? Adam's job as a gardening slave? And the lie about Adam dying if he eats from the tree? And naming every single type of creature (must've taken a while)? Woman from a rib? Why not just make her outa dust too? ;p
@dwells I just saw a message in my 'replies' tab but can't find it in here. Yeah, I'm an old timer now -- 49 but still got all my teeth (even though they're the english version of teeth) and my hair's not grey yet.
I still think, if he knows what we'll do, before we do it, it makes the free will seem redundant. He allows someone to be born, fuck up big time, then he sends them to hell for all eternity.
Anyways... Here's hoping you and yours have a great new year with lots of joy, love and contentment. All the best :)
It's at the bottom of the thread we were on. You might have to click show more replies or something. Thank you, I hope 2018 is a ground breaking new year for you.
I have to ask an odd question, your brother who is a believer and a flat earther, does he happen to have a cocker spaniel?
thank you
lol he's got no dogs. He's not on steemit yet. He only travelled back home to London this morning (he's been staying with the family in Liverpool for a few days). He said he was gonna join when he gets the NYE thing out of the way. Probs tomorrow or in the next few days. I'll deffo link you guys up. He super into all the flat earth, creator, illuminati and so on. He'll love listening to your theories on life, the universe and everything. He's super intelligent too. Great guy. Not just saying coz he's my bro, but he's proper salt of the earth.
Gotta ask: where did the cocker spaniel idea come from? :D
From this guy.
Even though he sounds like a southerner, he's actually from your side of the pond. I just thought, maybe by a sheer miracle of God to bless me, you might be this guy's sister. I just discovered this guy in the last month.
hahahahahah :D
This is so spooky. You know I said my bro has been showing me flat earth stuff? This was actually one of the vids he played. This guy is hilarious.
I love this guy. He packs A LOT of information in to each of his songs.
Hey I was scrolling thru Facebook and this video came across my feed. I watched it because of our recent conversation. I thought I would share it with you.
https://www.facebook.com/moises.gv.perez/posts/10156175414954235
BTW I think gods have a creator. Humans have created and destroyed gods for aeons. :)
I agree, gods do have a creator. gods like zues, thor, loki, gilgamesh, osiris, freya, tammuz, Ishtar, estarte, baal, and Dagan all have a creator, men. Yehovah, the God above all gods, the creator of the universe, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has no creator. He is the origin of life. All things came from him.
Ah Ray Comfort -- banana man!
He's using a very poor argument here. You cannot compare the creation of a book with the appearance of life and the universe. We have plenty of evidence that the book has a writer, ink, printers, and so on. We've seen actual proof of this.
This book is designed with a purpose, plotted, edited; artists were set to work towards its purpose, designers, etc. Lifeforms did not come about this way. There are some good examples where it's clear there was no design; some qualities are extremely inefficient.
If we were to design the human body from scratch, I'm sure there'd be many improvements we could think of. We wouldn't use the same tube for breathing and eating/drinking. Sex: who'd put the waste disposal near the pleasure park? The spine is inadequate for a bipedal ape which is why most of us develop back problems as we age -- it's just not up to the job of being upright, supporting our massive heavy heads. Eye: there's a blind spot. Because of the way light passes through the lens, the image is projected upside down onto the retina; the brain has to invert this image to make sense of it. A designer wouldn't allow for this inefficient waste of brainpower...
Giraffes:
Ray's argument is that it makes sense that everything has a creator. If that's true, who's god's creator? If the universe has to have a creator, it makes sense that gods also needed a creator. This is an infinite regression.
Lawrence Krauss -- explains that the 'nothing' from which everything came is actually not 'nothing' as we perceive it.
Please tell me you don't believe what he said. Please tell me you caught the flaw in his explanation. Please tell me you paid careful attention to the words he used and realized he didn't describe any kind of science in the end. You did catch that right?